Just got off this call, and thanks – my first try at this. Worked great, and very informative.
Just a couple of reflections –
I was a bit late coming in – but I started getting the idea that the issue of defining abstract objects like “islands” or “continents” or “terranes” was more or less the driver of the conversation. This perspective is the motivator of why this particular science is emerging, the problem it is intended to solve.
The basic underlying assumption seemed to be – we are looking at actual scientific or social practice – in an “empirical” way -- and seeing this language in actual use. Can we give it hard systematic definition in some way?
From my point of view – this seems more or less an impossible task – unless we are creating consensual agreements and stipulative definition systems. We can’t define “continent” in a universal or invariant or context-independent way. We are forced to define the term within the bounds of some social convention or agreement – something that “works in a particular professional domain or social context.”
I’ve been exploring the notion of ambitious computer-mediated projects that define concepts like “political issue” and “region of applicability” in some precise way. If we want to define an ideal form of cybernetic/electronic democracy or self-governance – we would want exact definitions of “regions” – maybe as legal entities, maybe as consensual agreements – so that we could put an issue like “global warming” or “climate change” in the right “region” – and also put a much more local issue like “where to put the stop sign” in the right bounded region.
I’d like to see all of this mediated through GIS and “longitude and latitude” – which as somebody mentioned in the call, is defined in floating-point numbers – “accurate to within a specific number of decimal places”. In a specific social or scientific group – the definitions of terms like “island” or “island chain” are consensual. But from the GIS mapping point of view – it’s less important what “label” we assign to this bounded region – and more important that we know the actual boundary, and how accurate it is (fractal theory tells us exact physical boundaries are a chimera). How we name or label this region – is a matter of convenience – necessary, but consensual and stipulative and approximate to within defined tolerances.
I thought it was interesting that immediately following the brief comments on longitude and latitude, somebody mentioned the tension between quantitative and qualitative definition.
And then someone mentioned the example of “how many murders occurred within a certain region”.
For me – the abstract space of word-definitions – “labels” – also refer to “bounded regions” – bounded regions in abstract space. So, the difference between “murder” and “manslaughter” is a matter of defining bounded regions in some critical dimensions. To what degree – along some dimension – was this act intentional? Various degrees of murder are defined in abstract dimensions in an abstract space. Just about all law is defined in just this way: stay inside the bounded region, you are legal and innocent – step outside of it, you are illegal and guilty.
If we begin to understand all abstract definition as essentially stipulative – as is the distinction in law between the various “degrees” of murder and manslaughter – it seems like we are looking at a fairly uniform methodology for linking quantitative and qualitative variables – “some kind of dimensionality”. Aren’t all distinctions in abstract space – the difference between a cat and a dog – defined in terms of bounded regions, where the “min” and “max” values in the bounded range are defined stipulatively – and that range could/should (?) be defined in dimensions?
If this starts to make sense – we then begin to see ways to build up all categorical/semantic definitions – especially in terms of legal issues – in term of min/max boundary values in critical dimensions. Of course this is kinda revolutionary -- but this feels like a key to patching together a whole lot of disparate domains – which are inherently incommensurate today, because they are defined in floating/ungrounded/independent variables. Start building up these definitions in a systematic way from exact floating point values in a consensual coordinate frame – and –
J
(hmm, explosive potential conclusions, grounded in – some would say -- mirage mathematics)
Thanks for this discussion and this list, much appreciated.
Bruce Schuman, Santa Barbara CA USA
http://goo.gl/VKm4og
From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gary Berg-Cross
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 6:53 AM
To: [ontolog-forum]
Subject: [ontolog-forum] Update on the Next Ontolog virtual meeting on "The Thing about Location Is" (Th. August 20th 12:30 -2 EDT).
A link to Mike Gruninger's slides for today's talk have now been posted on the Ontolog Wiki:
The outline of the talk is:
1. Review of Location Ontologies
such as 1st order ontologhies
2 Abstract vs physical regions
3 Do different classes of objects require different location ontologies?
4 Reasoning about change and location
Also Mike has set up to record the session in case you can't call in and we will post the link to that after it is processed
along, we expect, with some of the chat and discussion.
SOCoP Executive Secretary
On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 12:30 PM, Gary Berg-Cross <gbergcross@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Welcome back from vacation.....
We are planning another virtual meeting follow up to the June Vespucci Institutes 2015 Programme. This one on Th. August 20th (12:30- 2 EDT) follows the July session presented by Torsten Hahman and features a presentation by Mike Grunninger on: The Thing about Location Is ...
Abstract
Several ontologies for location have been proposed in the
literature, and all rely on the distinction between some kind
of physical object and the abstract region at which it is located.
This talk will explore some possible ways of axiomatizing classes
of physical geographical entities based on extensions of the location ontologies.
This is a topic of interest to the SOCoP community and the Ontolog communities.
More details on the call and presentation should be available soon and will follow the usual
Ontolog process for accessing the session. If there are any questions please contact Gary Berg-Cross gbergcross@xxxxxxxxx
SOCoP Executive Secretary