On Thursday, June 14, 2012 11:11 AM William Frank wrote: (01)
>Every time these issues of the meaning and even existence of such things as
>
>facts, truth, knowledge, etc. etc.
>
>arise in this forum,
>
>it seems to me that John Sowa calmly and modestly bears witness for reason.
> (02)
With all due respect to John Sowa, he is not a standard bearer for reason.
Nietzesche once said "... the are no facts, only interpretations". But then
again for many people he is not a standard bearer as well. But more important
is the fact that not statement can be false or true outside of the context. In
this sense context is more important then statement itself. Nothing was said on
this thread about existence of facts or its meaning. These disagreements can
only be adressed in a properly set up context. (03)
>But I continue to wonder at this, for my taste, all too common topic of
>disagreement. I always thought, before joining, that the denial of the
>>existence of these things was known to all to be logically inconsistent, as
>an application of the liar's paradox, so that whatever mysteries and >problems
>might lurk with respect to them, nobody at all who thought carefully would be
>making these superficial, self-contradicting >assertions. (04)
There is nothing self-contradicting said so far, and I don't see any natural
langauge statement as an assertion. That is perhaps the source of your
confusion. Natural language has evolved in a context of cooperation that
involves various forms of signaling. Some of it may be considered a
communication of facts, again in properly setup context. But other foms of
signaling do not commmunicate facts. What fact is communicated by mating call?
You can certainly set up a logial context using modal logic where this call
will be an assertion of fact. But that is syntethic, not natural interpreation. (05)
I am not sure what you call an "application of liar's paradox". Can you
elaborate? (06)
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 11:00 PM, John F Sowa <sowa@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: (07)
Len,
>
>First, I'd like to emphasize that knowing *facts* has enormous
>survivor values for every species, including humans. If an animal
>knows where to find food, water, etc., that can make a difference
>between life and death.
>
>> In nature cooperation is not about truth or facts (however defined ),
>> but about playing games.
>
>First of all, there is nothing controversial about the word 'fact'.
>If you want a definition, just look in a dictionary. If you type
>"define fact" to Google, you get
>
> 1. A thing that is indisputably the case.
> 2. Information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article.
>
>Definition #1 is the primary one. The second is derivative.
>Other dictionaries will give you further fine points, but there
>is nothing controversial or political about them.
>
>But there may be controversies about the facts in any particular
>case, and finding the facts may lead to a lengthy investigation.
>
>> It shows that some strategies are seemingly wasting precious
>> resources only to "impress" others.
>
>Not all facts have the same survival value. When you're starving,
>it's more important to know where to get food than knowing
>the capital of Wyoming.
>
>The same is true about impressing other individuals of the same
>or different species. It can be essential for getting a mate,
>getting a job, or avoiding being robbed or killed.
>
>> There may even be connection here to the language games.
>
>I agree with that point.
>
>John
>
>
>
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> (08)
--
William Frank (09)
413/376-8167 (010)
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