Re: [ontolog-forum] Logic evolving from language ... or not

[Pavithra <pavithra_kenjige@xxxxxxxxx>]

Dr. Sowa,

There is language skill ( ability to speak or communicate in a language or multiple languages or sign language) ) vs literacy  (ability to read and write in a  language).  

Knowledge  transferred or taught or learned through life / surviving  skills and training and experience without written scriptures can be highly accurate.

For example,  a fisherman's child  may learn how to fish where to fish and what fish are good by just being around a good fisherman for a father.    Just because a person knows how to read and write, does not mean that person can be a  better fisherman.   

In my opinon, there is practical knowledge and skills and then there is communication.   Language is a part of communication, and is an enabler like technology.   It should help with communication,  efficiency of learning and memorizing power, or management of knowledge and usage of knowledge.

But the way people communicate and verbiage used, and mannerism and effectiveness can be influenced greatly with literacy and technology.    Language and technology are kinds of knowledge too.  But literacy and technology by itself does not make a person thief or good person.  That kind of nature is innate to a person's personality.   But one can use good communication skills to change another person's views to a great extent.

Actual practical experience in real life is more effective than bookish knowledge in certain areas.    But one has to know the language to enjoy literature or know technology to connect virtually to people in different part of the world.  So each has its significance. 
I think logic is based on the actual facts of life and universe.  Usage of language and correctness of it is based on logic.

I should know this better, since I have first hand experience being with illustrate and literate world and close to nature and  cities like Jim.   

Regards,
Pavithra Kenjige

From: John F. Sowa <sowa@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Logic evolving from language ... or not
To: "Phil Murray" <pcmurray2000@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 9:04 AM

Phil,

I agree.

On 4/5/2010 8:33 AM, Phil Murray wrote:

PM> It would be hard for me to prove, but I have the strong suspicion
> that basic logic *precedes* language. Or perhaps they evolved in
> concert, with language being the vehicle necessary to transfer vital
> information to a larger group of people [more efficiently].

I would extend that point to note that *all* of the higher animals
have very effective (and logical) reasoning methods.  But they don't
use a language-based kind of logic.  They are more likely to use
a method of building and checking mental models.

My cat, for example, is very good at detecting subtle warning signs
of impending disasters, such as a trip to the vet.  Cats are very
good at planning escape routes and hiding places.  But their mental
models usually omit their tell-tale tails.  That's probably because
the grass and underbrush in their ancestral homeland would have been
sufficient to hide the tail -- but it sticks out from under a bed.

Monkeys, apes, and ravens can invent and use some very sophisticated
tools and techniques to solve problems for getting food.

PM> Assembling the elements required to start a fire -- flints,
> flammable shavings, wood -- appears to be a moderately complex
> set of if-thens.

I strongly suspect that a proto-language preceded the discovery
of how to start and manage fires.  Whether it included an if-then
construction is not clear.

In any case, if-then constructions are most useful for explaining
plans to other members of the tribe.  The actual reasoning can be
done (as it still is today) by imagining, elaborating, and checking
mental models -- which can involve more images than words.

John


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