OntologySummit2012 Launch Event - Thu 2012-01-12    (30ID)

Abstract: Goals & Objectives    (31FV)

OntologySummit2012 Theme: "Ontology for Big Systems"    (31FW)

This is our 7th Ontology Summit, a joint initiative by NIST, Ontolog, NCOR, NCBO, IAOA & NCO_NITRD with the support of our co-sponsors. The theme adopted for this Ontology Summit is: "Ontology for Big Systems." In an earlier planning session last month, the community and subsequently, the summit organizing committee members brainstormed on the choice of theme and how best to frame the issues. These inputs were carefully reviewed and synthesized by the Ontology Summit Organizing Committee and its leadership. It is this plan and program that we will be discussing with everyone during today's launch event.    (31FX)

During this 3-month Summit, we seek to explore, identify and articulate how ontological methods can bring value to the various disciplines required to engineer a "big system." The term "big system" is intended to cover a large scope that includes many of the terms encountered in the media such as big data, complex techno-socio-economic systems, intelligent or smart systems, cloud computing, netcentricity and collective intelligence. Established disciplines that fall within the summit scope include (but not limited to) systems engineering, software engineering, information systems modelling, and data mining.    (31FY)

The principal goal of the summit is to bring together and foster collaboration between the ontology community, systems community, and stakeholders of some of "big systems." Together, the summit participants will exchange ideas on how ontological analysis and ontology engineering might make a difference, when applied in these "big systems." We will aim towards producing a series of recommendations describing how ontologies can create an impact; as well as providing illustrations where these techniques have been, or could be, applied in domains such as bioinformatics, electronic health records, intelligence, the smart electrical grid, manufacturing and supply chains, earth and environmental, e-science, cyberphysical systems and e-government. As is traditional with the Ontology Summit series, the results will be captured in the form of a communiqué, with expanded supporting material provided on the web.    (31FZ)

The 2012 Ontology Summit officially begins with today's launch event. We are initiating a series of topical online discussions, virtual panel sessions, studies, synthesis exercises, etc. which will take place, virtually, over the next 3 months. All of these will come together with a face-to-face meeting on April 12 & 13 in Gaithersburg, Maryland, USA at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST).    (31G0)

See developing details at: OntologySummit2012 (home page for this summit)    (31G1)

Agenda:    (31G2)

Ontology Summit 2012 Launch    (31G3)

Proceedings:    (31GD)

Please refer to the above    (31GE)

IM Chat Transcript captured during the session:    (31GF)

 see raw transcript here.    (31GG)
 (for better clarity, the version below is a re-organized and lightly edited chat-transcript.)
 Participants are welcome to make light edits to their own contributions as they see fit.    (31GH)
 -- begin in-session chat-transcript --    (31GI)
	PeterYim: Welcome to the    (31Y5)
	= OntologySummit2012 Launch Event - Thu 2012-01-12 =    (31Y6)
	Topic: OntologySummit2012: "Ontology for Big Systems"    (31Y7)
	Co-chairs: Dr. NicolaGuarino & Dr. LeoObrst    (31Y8)
	Session page: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2012_01_12    (31Y9)
	Mute control: *7 to un-mute ... *6 to mute    (31YA)
	Can't find Skype Dial pad? ... it's under the "Call" dropdown menu as "Show Dial pad"    (31YB)
	== Proceedings: ==    (31YC)
	anonymous morphed into BobSchloss    (31YD)
	anonymous morphed into SteveRay    (31YE)
	BobSmith1 morphed into BobSmith    (31YF)
	anonymous morphed into DougFoxvog    (31YG)
	anonymous1 morphed into GiancarloGuizzardi    (31YH)
	anonymous morphed into ChristopherSpottiswoode    (31YI)
	anonymous1 morphed into Yefim (Jeff) Zhuk    (31YJ)
	mariakeet morphed into MariaKeet    (31YK)
	anonymous morphed into ElizabethFlorescu    (31YL)
	Kathy Ellis morphed into KathyEllis    (31YM)
	anonymous1 morphed into LarryLefkowitz    (31YN)
	anonymous morphed into RichardDetsch    (31YO)
	anonymous2 morphed into GaryBergCross    (31YP)
	anonymous morphed into SimonSpero    (31YQ)
	anonymous3 morphed into BartGajderowicz    (31YR)
	SimonSpero: The importance of your call is high    (31YS)
	anonymous morphed into BryanThompson    (31YT)
	Line Pouchard morphed into LinePouchard    (31YU)
	nicola morphed into NicolaGuarino    (31YV)
	anonymous morphed into KarlGrossner    (31YW)
	anonymous1 morphed into RosarioUcedaSosa    (31YX)
	AliHashemi: Refresh the session page    (31YY)
	SteveRay: Slides are being uploaded as we speak. Hang on.    (31YZ)
	AliHashemi: Slides usually appear there    (31Z0)
	LeoObrst: Peter is still making the slides available. Stay tuned shortly.    (31Z1)
	anonymous morphed into ArunMajumdar    (31Z2)
	DougFoxvog: Slides are at 
	http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/work/OntologySummit2012/2012-01-12_OntologySummit2012_Launch/    (31Z3)
	anonymous1 morphed into JimSchoening    (31Z4)
	BryanThompson: How do you enter the pin into skype?    (31Z5)
	AliHashemi: Click Call    (31Z6)
	AliHashemi: Click Show Dial Pad    (31Z7)
	AliHashemi: it's in the menu bar    (31Z8)
	anonymous morphed into ChrisWelty    (31Z9)
	DougFoxvog: To un-mute, press "*7" ... To mute, press "*6"    (31ZA)
	ChrisWelty: hello boys and girls    (31ZB)
	AliHashemi: And for the slides, remember to refresh this page: 
	http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2012_01_12    (31ZC)
	SimonSpero: Are slide decks 5 and 8 not there yet?    (31ZD)
	PeterYim: @simon: hang on ... they will soon be uploaded    (31ZE)
	anonymous1 morphed into MariaTeresaBiagetti    (31ZF)
	RexBrooks: I'm not on the phone yet--in another meeting for next half hour.    (31ZG)
	anonymous morphed into EricLittle    (31ZH)
	Dalia Varanka morphed into DaliaVaranka    (31ZI)
	ChrisWelty: 10 years of Ontolog - credit mainly to Peter, congrats!    (31ZJ)
        PeterYim: thank you, Chris.    (31ZK)
	ChrisWelty morphed into a TV star    (31ZL)
	SteveRay: Cute.    (31ZM)
	SteveRay: 5 years, yes.    (31ZN)
	RamSriram: Peter: Was the presentation on Siri in Feb 2010 or Feb 2011?    (31ZO)
	PeterYim: @Ram - the Siri presentation was in Feb-2010 - see: 
	http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2010_02_25 ... in fact, after the Apr-2010 
	Apple acquisition, they have not been presenting their technology to the public much at all    (31ZP)
	RosarioUcedaSosa: I have problems accessing Sri's slides... everybody else's connection to the 
	server is ok?    (31ZQ)
	SteveRay: [a portion, relating to internal architecture of] the slides supporting the Siri talk were 
	not stored, by request of AdamCheyer and TomGruber. There was some proprietary information there.    (31ZR)
	SteveRay: Ah, confusion between Sri (aka Sriram) and Siri, as in TomGruber's talk years ago.    (31ZS)
	SimonSpero: Applying results of last years summit to use cases?    (31ZT)
	JoelBender: What is "large"?    (31ZU)
	AliHashemi: @Rosario - it took a while to load for me to. If you are having tuoble with the slides 
	you can also try the vnc I believe: http://vnc2.cim3.net:5800/    (31ZV)
	RosarioUcedaSosa: Got it restored now. Thx    (31ZW)
	a TV star morphed into ChrisWelty    (31ZX)
	DougFoxvog: The slides are not being advanced.    (31ZY)
	anonymous1 morphed into ChristopherSpottiswoode    (31ZZ)
	SimonSpero: Are we getting in to the space of Translational Medicine?    (3200)
	ChrisWelty: who is the person talking?    (3201)
	AliHashemi: GeorgeStrawn    (3202)
	anonymous2 morphed into FrankOlken    (3203)
	RosarioUcedaSosa: Seems to me that the first three tracks and the fourth track are just two 
	dimensions (system-based vs domain-based) of the problem.    (3204)
	NicolaGuarino: @Rosario: indeed track 4 is orthogonal wrt the first three tracks. Some people 
	thought it was useful to have a track explicitly focusing on applications    (3205)
	RexBrooks: Its a bit odd that I don't have time to work on this year's summit because I'm working on 
	some big systems, though at the ground level getting the terms and datatypes entered for emergency 
	management systems so that larger convergences will be possible among international as well as 
	national, state and local levels of jurisdiction. So I will probably be intermittent, and looking to 
	learn more than contribute.    (3206)
	SimonSpero: Big Data Management and Big Data interpretation are very, very different beasts    (3207)
	NicolaGuarino: @Simon: Yes, indeed I expect the focus will be manly on interpretation    (3208)
	AmandaVizedom: It's also worth noting that the fourth listed track, "Large-scale domain 
	applications," lists some topics that meet the "domain applications" description, and some topics 
	that are not really domain applications but rather analytics and/or implementation views on big 
	systems (e.g., net-centricity, socio-technical aspects of large systems).    (3209)
	NicolaGuarino: @Amanda: Yes, indeed some of these keywords need to be adjusted, clarified or 
	possibly deleted. This will be part of future work. We wanted just to be as inclusive as possible 
	for the time being    (320A)
	SimonSpero: @Nicola - there's a lot of places where 'ontology of ' and 'ontology for ' are fighting    (320B)
	BartGajderowicz: @AmandaVizedom- it may mean domain-specific applications, verses architecture 
	related issues    (320C)
	AmandaVizedom: @BartGajderowicz: yes, I agree. My comment was meant to point out that some 
	non-domain-specific things had snuck in there.    (320D)
	RosarioUcedaSosa: I mentioned the two-dimensional structure because it may help us identify the key 
	issues in these systems. My colleague BobSchloss and I have been working on ontologies for Smarter 
	cities and we've found challenges at the three tracks that you specify, including the fact that an 
	ontology for Smart Cities is an 'integrating' ontology, versus a normative/prescriptive model, like 
	in other domains. The point is that different domains may require a different approach to ontology 
	design.    (320E)
	AliHashemi: Rosario, I believe there will also be a preliminary session where we explore various 
	interpretations of big systems. In the course of these discussions, I suspect the different required 
	approaches will be articulated.    (320F)
	AmandaVizedom: There is a lot of variety in how we all view the topics, issues, and distinctions. 
	Among our first challenges is to come to agree on a good-enough selection of tracks/foci with which 
	to organize the content and process. I think that we all understand that the result is imperfect and 
	has some arbitrariness to it, but the settlement and focus are necessary, especially with Summit 
	topic that is so broad. Thank, Nicola and Leo, for setting a starting structure.    (320G)
	NicolaGuarino: @Simon: In many cases we need both: we need "ontology of" in order to have "ontology 
	for"...    (320H)
	SimonSpero: @Nicola Total agreement    (320I)
	RosarioUcedaSosa: I'd be very interested in following/participating.    (320J)
	ChrisWelty: Rosario: we generally take "domain" to mean the general subject area of the ontology 
	content. I think you mean the way the ontology is used will/may require a different approach    (320K)
	anonymous1 morphed into NancyGrady    (320L)
	AmandaVizedom: On the topic of spreading the word: twitter hashtag is #ontologysummit2012.    (320M)
	ArunMajumdar: General Comment: one area of challenge to me is the model based, versus 
	data-engineering and ontology based methodologies --- I see these in my current moderate data 
	problems and can envision the problem is of importance to big data. For example, models have 
	implicit ontologies but many ontologies are themselves implicitly models while in other cases data 
	or information engineering has its own ontological and model commitments that are often never made 
	explicit. I would be very keen to see any intersections that include model-based, ontology-based and 
	data-engineering driven big data ontology approach (itself, of course, being an ontology for such).    (320N)
	ToddSchneider: Arun, these subjects and their relations should be covered in the Large-Scale Systems 
	Engineering track    (320O)
	ArunMajumdar: Thanks Todd    (320P)
	ArunMajumdar: @Todd - thanks    (320Q)
	ArunMajumdar: @Todd - let's communicate more on this: I am very keen on this.    (320R)
	ToddSchneider: Arun, definitely.    (320S)
	ArunMajumdar: @Todd - thanks, will do    (320T)
	AmandaVizedom: @Arun: IME, the issues you raise are especially strong in Federated systems and 
	interoperability-focused projects. This is also an area that has been suggested for one or more 
	sessions (primarily by CoryCasanave, though it looks like he is not on today).    (320U)
	SimonSpero: Administrivia Q: During the summit, there was a shared google doc editing setup. That 
	seemed to work well, and might work well earlier in the process    (320V)
	SimonSpero: Is it still there?    (320W)
	PeterYim: @SimonSpero - ref. use of google-docs - good point; let's make sure the communique lead 
	editors, or even the track champions take that into consideration    (320X)
	anonymous1 morphed into KurtConrad    (320Y)
	AmandaVizedom: @Rosario: Regarding the challenges you've encountered in your Smarter cities work: I 
	wouldn't call those issues domain-specific; they appear in many domains. They are, however, related 
	to the type of project in a variety of ways orthogonal to domain: e.g. the functions of the system, 
	the uses it must support, the resources available, the technical and policy requirements that may 
	apply, the level of complexity, etc...    (320Z)
	RosarioUcedaSosa: @Amanda: Agree. I meant that there are several basic parameters that focus the 
	functionality and structure of the ontology    (3210)
	RosarioUcedaSosa: @Amanda: Identifying these issues would be very useful.    (3211)
	SimonSpero: @Rosario++    (3212)
	ToddSchneider: Rosario, what your addressing is the architecture for the use of ontologies and 
	semantic technologies.    (3213)
	RosarioUcedaSosa: @Todd: Yes.    (3214)
	BobSchloss: I am still not sure how the various scheduled teleconferences will be used. Will each 
	one include only 1 of the 4 tracks? Will a schedule be placed on the ontolog website sometime in the 
	next week or two?    (3215)
	GaryBergCross: Two dates were listed as possible for the Summit. How will final dates be decided and 
	when will that be?    (3216)
	FrankOlken: Regarding possible dates for the face-to-face meeting please note that Data Engineering 
	Conference will be in DC the first week of April, and the SIAM Data Mining meeting will be April 
	26-28 in Anaheim, Calif. I tend to favor the later dates for the face to face April 23-24.    (3217)
	ArunMajumdar: I prefer April 23-24 also    (3218)
	GaryBergCross: I prefer April 23-24 also. There is a Wherecon during the earlier week in April 
	(12-13).    (3219)
	AliHashemi: Folks, I've got to run. Thanks to all for the effort.    (321A)
	NicolaGuarino: @Ali: thanks for your contributions, Ali    (321B)
	NicolaGuarino: For the record, I encourage all those who are making oral questions or comments to 
	also write them down on the chat    (321C)
	JoelBender: @Rosario : please post your call for participation for that topic to the list    (321D)
	RosarioUcedaSosa: @Joel: This is what I propose: to spell out the usability issues for the ontology 
	consumers (end/business users) in some of these domains.    (321E)
	RosarioUcedaSosa: @Nicola/@Joel: Which list? this chat?    (321F)
	BobSchloss: @Rosario -- [ontology-summit] mailing list archives - 
	http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontology-summit/ (31H1) To subscribe to this discussion list: send a 
	blank message from your subscribing email address to <ontology-summit-join@ontolog.cim3.net> or 
	visit http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontology-summit/ and subscribe yourself there    (321G)
	JoanneLuciano: have to leave now. thanks everyone! Looking forward to this summit.    (321H)
	DougFoxvog: The three levels of ontologizing being discussed seem to be 
                    * ontology of development of ontologies 
                    * ontology of the use of ontologies, and 
                    * ontology of domain    (321I)
	AmandaVizedom: @Rosario: Indeed! Have you seen the start that was made in this direction during last 
	year's summit ( http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2011_Communique )? That is 
	just a start, but a useful one. Developing it further and building support for it is something a 
	number of us have been looking for opportunities/means to pursue.    (321J)
	RosarioUcedaSosa: @Amanda: No, but I'll take a look at that. In the case of complex systems, the 
	notion of an ontology consumer becomes key.    (321K)
	PeterYim: @JackRing - can you re-post the message that you just typed into the "queue" box, please    (321L)
	MatthewWest: I have to leave now. Looks like we have a flying start.    (321M)
	ArunMajumdar: Bye All - I have to leave also.    (321N)
	ToddSchneider: Doug, your distinctions would be represented in the architecture I mentioned earlier.    (321O)
	FrankOlken: Peter, The instructions for joining the teleconference via Skype were unclear - what 
	Skype ID? I used regular phone, but would prefer to use skype in the future.    (321P)
	PeterYim: @Frank, if you use skype, all you need to do is to skype the user by the 
	skypeID:"joinconference" ... one way to do that is to just paste "joinconference" (without the " ") 
	into the dial-command-line (where you would usually type in the phone number) then you will be 
	prompted to key in a ConferenceID or the PIN ... the challenge for some is that in the latest skype 
	software, the dial-pad is somewhat hidden ... and hence my earlier comment: Can't find Skype Dial 
	pad? ... it's under the "Call" dropdown menu as "Show Dial pad"    (321Q)
	AmandaVizedom: @Rosario: I couldn't agree more. And it is often overlooked that the ontologies in 
	these cases need to be understandable by both machines and humans, often both as part of the 
	system's processes and as external consumers.    (321R)
	RosarioUcedaSosa: @Amanda: Absolutely. Usability is not a 'topic' but a dimension that should be 
	spelled out every time we discuss a domain.    (321S)
	MariaKeet: on data mining, there is the e-LICO project http://www.e-lico.eu ... as a response on 
	Nicolas note on looking for people who work on data mining    (321T)
	MariaKeet: I'm calling in with the number. I just wanted to illustrate the e-LICO project, which 
	extends semantic scientific workflows with data mining ontologies and domain ontologies    (321U)
	BobSchloss: I think we would do well to be clear about the "use cases" associated with the 
	ontology-consumer role that @Rosario is bringing up. One use case is "become familiar with what the 
	scope of the ontology is" -- put information into the person's head. Another use case is "be able to 
	prepare to contribute information to the ontology conforming with its current structure and sets of 
	types/classes/concepts". Another use case is "extend the set of 
	concepts/types/classes/associative-relationships which are initially present in the ontology, for 
	contributing my own information and for hoped for use by others", etc. etc. Each of these has sub 
	use cases -- "search" "visualization" "navigation" etc etc.    (321V)
	GiancarloGuizzardi: In the process of engineering Large-Scale complex system we will have the 
	situation in which multiple languages, methods and tools will have to co-exist and be integrated. 
	Traditionally, in systems engineering, there has been for years a trend towards different 
	manifestations of model-based approaches to address this issue. An important issue to be emphasized 
	is that language (method) integration is a semantic interoperability problem it is about the 
	semantic interoperation of models which happen to be language (method) metamodels.    (321W)
	FrankOlken: @SteveRay, I am still interested in Smart Grids.    (321X)
	SteveRay: @FrankOlken: Was that you on the phone expressing interest in smart grid? I didn't catch 
	who was talking. [ppy: believe that was JoelBender]    (321Y)
	ToddSchneider: Giancarlo, I would hope the summit would take a forward looking approach (i.e., the 
	to-be state) and look past current practices and tools: Where do we think we can be.    (321Z)
	GiancarloGuizzardi: @ToddSchneider: Sure. What I mentioned there is forward thinking. We are far 
	from mastering the issue of semantic interoperability of multiple languages and models that have to 
	co-exist in complex engineering projects. don't you agree?    (3220)
	DeborahMacPherson: Interested in volunteering for the Large-Scale Domain Applications Track    (3221)
	RosarioUcedaSosa: I volunteer for the domain Smart Cities and E-Government, if anybody else is 
	interested (in any capacity)    (3222)
	GiancarloGuizzardi: btw, a very relevant initiative in this respect is OMG's Semantic Information 
	Modeling for Federation: 
	http://www.omgwiki.org/architecture-ecosystem/doku.php?id=semantic_information_modeling_for_federation_rfp    (3223)
	AmandaVizedom: @BobS: In fact, I'd argue that one of the challenges of Large, especially but not 
	only federated, systems, is that all of these use cases have to be supported along with many others. 
	I wonder whether it would make sense to build a use case that is typical of such complex cases, and 
	a composite of individual cases we collectively have worked on (avoiding issues of publishing 
	descriptions of any particular organization's workings). Such a use case would be a really Big Use 
	Case, and get at so many of the different issues. It might make a good basis for a Grand Challenge?    (3224)
	RosarioUcedaSosa: Yes, maybe a Smarter City is a concrete/accessible example?    (3225)
	NicolaGuarino: @Rosario: Do you have a specific smarter city project to consider as a case study?    (3226)
	AliHashemi: I'm back ... My other meeting was cancelled.    (3227)
	ToddSchneider: Giancarlo, my view is that an ontology is a/the model and we need to provide a way to 
	make these pervasive in the engineering process. Most current engineering tools and there embedded 
	and non-explicit semantics make them an impediment.    (3228)
	GiancarloGuizzardi: @ToddSchneider: Agree w.r.t. existing tools and even languages lacking explicit 
	semantics    (3229)
	ToddSchneider: How about government as a complex system?    (322A)
	SimonSpero: @Todd: chaotic?    (322B)
	anonymous1 morphed into BrandNiemann    (322C)
	NicolaGuarino: Speaking of media, let me remind everybody the twitter hashtag suggested by Amanda: 
	#ontologysummit2012    (322D)
	MariaKeet: @Giancarlo: there's an initiative for standardising dealing with multiple ontology 
	languages in one system (ISO's wg on OntoIOp) and the Hets tool system    (322E)
	GiancarloGuizzardi: @MariaKeet: thanks, I will take a look. However, I don't mean (only) multiple 
	ontology languages. I mean multiple system engineering languages in general.    (322F)
	SimonSpero: @Todd: the life of the law is experience, not logic.    (322G)
	FrankOlken: Nicola, May I suggest the possibility of shortening the hash tag to #ontosummit2012 ? It 
	would save typing (and space).    (322H)
	AmandaVizedom: @Nicola @Frank: actually, I'm passing along the "official" hashtag, as seen on summit 
	home page. I would have gone for something shorter, but I lost that argument a couple of summits 
	ago. So, #ontologysummit2012 it is!    (322I)
	BrandNiemann: I will write story (s) about this in AOL Government if you would like. See 
	http://gov.aol.com/bloggers/brand-niemann/    (322J)
	AliHashemi: @Brand, yes please!    (322K)
	BartGajderowicz: @GiancarloGuizzardi: just to make the distinction between big-data and big-systems: 
	in terms of big data, associating data with ontologies would help with semantic integration and 
	interoperability.. if the meta-models are modelling DB record instances. This is not the case with 
	meta-models of work-flows and processes.    (322L)
	GiancarloGuizzardi: @BartGajderowicz: Foundational Ontologies can play a fundamental role in 
	language interoperability    (322M)
	GiancarloGuizzardi: for instance, typically in these scenarios, we will have multiple process 
	modeling languages, data modeling languages, goal modeling languages, etc...    (322N)
	GiancarloGuizzardi: How do the modeling primitives in one process language relate to the primitives 
	in other languages? How do process primitives in different languages relate to goal modeling 
	primitives in different goal languages etc...?    (322O)
	BartGajderowicz: @GiancarloGuizzardi: absolutely agree    (322P)
	ToddSchneider: How about the creation of legislation as a complex system?    (322Q)
	SimonSpero: @todd : http://www.springerlink.com/content/100239/ (Artificial Intelligence and Law )    (322R)
	ToddSchneider: Simon, great. My sister is lawyer and usually discounts work in this direction.    (322S)
	SimonSpero: @Todd Oy, my sister is a lawyer.    (322T)
	AliHashemi: @Todd, we're looking at that for our company as well. @Simon, law ontologies have come a 
	loooong way from there :D    (322U)
	NicolaGuarino: As an example of a BIG project (proposal) concerning big systems, have a look at 
	http://www.futurict.eu (still a proposal, though, although ranked first in a preliminary selection    (322V)
	JoelBender: Thank you all!    (322W)
	SteveRay: Great start!    (322X)
	PeterYim: great session!    (322Y)
	RosarioUcedaSosa: This was great. Thanks!    (322Z)
	MariaKeet: thanks all, bye!    (3230)
	GiancarloGuizzardi: great discussion. I have to leave now but hope we can resume this in one of the 
	sessions. bye to all and thanks.    (3231)
	PeterYim: -- session ended: 11:24am PST --    (3232)
 -- end of in-session chat-transcript --    (31GJ)

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