ppy/chat-transcript_unedited_20120112a.txt Chat transcript from room: summit_20120112 2012-01-12 GMT-08:00 ----------- [09:12] anonymous morphed into Bob Schloss (IBM Research) [09:23] anonymous morphed into SteveRay [09:24] Bob Smith1 morphed into Bob Smith [09:27] anonymous morphed into doug foxvog [09:27] anonymous1 morphed into GiancarloGuizzardi [09:28] anonymous morphed into ChristopherSpottiswoode [09:28] anonymous1 morphed into Yefim (Jeff) Zhuk [09:30] Bob Schloss (IBM Research) morphed into BobSchloss [09:30] mariakeet morphed into MariaKeet [09:30] anonymous morphed into ElizabethF [09:30] doug foxvog morphed into dougFoxvog [09:32] Kathy Ellis morphed into KathyEllis [09:34] anonymous1 morphed into Larry Lefkowitz [09:34] anonymous morphed into Richard Detsch [09:34] anonymous2 morphed into Gary Berg-Cross [09:34] anonymous morphed into SimonSpero [09:34] anonymous3 morphed into BartGajderowicz [09:35] Larry Lefkowitz morphed into LarryLefkowitz [09:35] SimonSpero: The importance of your call is high [09:35] anonymous morphed into Bryan Thompson [09:35] Line Pouchard morphed into LinePouchard [09:35] Richard Detsch morphed into RichardDetsch [09:35] nicola morphed into Nicola Guarino [09:35] anonymous morphed into KarlGrossner [09:35] anonymous1 morphed into RosarioUceda-Sosa [09:36] AliHashemi: Refresh the session page [09:36] SteveRay: Slides are being uploaded as we speak. Hang on. [09:36] AliHashemi: Slides usually appear there [09:36] LeoObrst: Peter is still making the slides available. Stay tuned shortly. [09:36] anonymous morphed into ArunMajumdar [09:36] dougFoxvog: Slides are at http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/work/OntologySummit2012/2012-01-12_OntologySummit2012_Launch/ [09:36] anonymous1 morphed into JimSchoening [09:38] Bryan Thompson: How do you enter the pin into skype? [09:38] AliHashemi: Click Call [09:38] AliHashemi: Click Show Dial Pad [09:38] AliHashemi: it's in the menu bar [09:38] PeterYim: Welcome to the = OntologySummit2012 Launch Event - Thu 2012-01-12 = Topic: OntologySummit2012: "Ontology for Big Systems" Co-chairs: Dr. NicolaGuarino & Dr. LeoObrst Session page: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2012_01_12 Mute control: *7 to un-mute ... *6 to mute Can't find Skype Dial pad? ... it's under the "Call" dropdown menu as "Show Dial pad" . == Proceedings: == . [09:38] anonymous morphed into ChrisW [09:39] Nicola Guarino: @Peter: did you get my slides? [09:39] dougFoxvog: To un-mute, press "*7" ... To mute, press "*6" [09:40] ChrisW: hello boys and girls [09:40] AliHashemi: And for the slides, remember to refresh this page: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2012_01_12 [09:40] anonymous1 morphed into MariateresaBiagetti [09:41] SimonSpero: Are 5 and 8 not there? [09:41] RexBrooks: I'm not on the phone yet--in another meeting for next half hour. [09:41] ChrisW morphed into ChrisWelty [09:41] anonymous morphed into EricLittle [09:42] -- session started: 9:42am PST -- [09:51] Dalia Varanka morphed into DaliaVaranka [09:51] ChrisWelty: 10 years of Ontolog - credit mainly to Peter, congrats! [09:55] Ram D. Sriram: Peter: Was the presentation on Siri in Feb 2010 or Feb 2011? [09:55] ChrisWelty morphed into a TV star [09:56] SteveRay: Cute. [09:59] SteveRay: 5 years, yes. [10:01] RosarioUceda-Sosa: I have problems accessing Sri's slides... everybody else's connection to the server is ok? [10:01] SimonSpero: Applying results of last years summit to use cases? [10:01] JoelBender: What is "large"? [10:02] SteveRay: The slides supporting the Siri talk were not stored, by request of Tom Gruber. There was some proprietary information there. [10:02] AliHashemi: @Rosario - it took a while to load for me to. If you are having tuoble with the slides you can also try the vnc I believe: http://vnc2.cim3.net:5800/ [10:03] SteveRay: Ah, confusion between Sri (aka Sriram) and Siri, as in Tom Gruber's talk years ago. [10:04] RosarioUceda-Sosa: Got it restored now. Thx [10:05] a TV star morphed into ChrisW [10:05] dougFoxvog: The slides are not being advanced. [10:06] anonymous1 morphed into ChristopherSpottiswoode [10:08] MariateresaBiagetti1 morphed into MariateresaBiagetti [10:10] SimonSpero: Are we getting in to the space of Translational Medicine? [10:14] AliHashemi: Nicola's voice is cutting out for me. [10:17] SteveRay: I'll be transitioning to phone-only for a bit - back to the chat in an hour. [10:18] ToddSchneider: Peter, Nicola has moved to the next slide. [10:20] PeterYim: @Ram - the Siri presentation was in Feb-2010 - see: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2010_02_25 ... in fact, after the Apr-2010 Apple acquisition, they have not been presenting their technology to the public much at all [10:23] ChrisW: who is the person talking? [10:23] AliHashemi: GeorgeStrawn [10:25] PeterYim: ref. http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?GeorgeStrawn [10:25] anonymous2 morphed into FrankOlken [10:28] anonymous1 morphed into ElizabethF [10:31] RosarioUceda-Sosa: Seems to me that the first three tracks and the fourth track are just two dimensions (system-based vs domain-based) of the problem. [10:35] RexBrooks: Its a bit odd that I don't have time to work on this year's summit because I'm working on some big systems, though at the ground level getting the terms and datatypes entered for emergency management systems so that larger onvergences will be possible among international as well as national, state and local levels of jurisdiction. So I will probably be intermittent, and looking to learn more than contribute. [10:36] Nicola Guarino: @Rosario: indeed track 4 is orthogonal wrt the first three tracks. Some people thought it was useful to have a track explicitly focusing on applications [10:38] SimonSpero: Big Data Management and Big Data interpretation are very, very different beasts [10:39] Nicola Guarino: @Simon: Yes, indeed I expect the focus will be manly on interpretation [10:40] AmandaVizedom: It's also worth noting that the fourth listed track, "Large-scale domain applications," lists some topics that meet the "domain applications" description, and some topics that are not really domain applications but rather analytics and/or implementation views on big systems (e.g., net-centricity, socio-technical aspects of large systems). [10:42] SimonSpero: @Nicola - there's a lot of places where 'ontology of ' and 'ontology for ' are fighting :) [10:42] BartGajderowicz: @AmandaVizedom- it may mean domain-specific applications, verses architecture related issues [10:44] RosarioUceda-Sosa: I mentioned the two-dimensional structure because it may help us identify the key issues in these systems. My colleague Bob Schloss and I have been working on ontologies for Smarter cities and we've found challenges at the three tracks that you specify, including the fact that an ontology for SC's is an 'integrating' ontology, versus a normative/prescriptive model, like in other domains. The point is that different domains may require a different approach to ontology design. [10:45] Nicola Guarino: @Amanda: Yes, indeed some of these keywords need to be adjusted, clarified or possibly deleted This will be part of future work. We wanted just to be as inclusive as possible for the time being [10:46] AliHashemi: Rosaria, I believe there will also be a preliminary session where we explore various interpretations of big systems. In the course of these discussions, I suspect the different required approaches will be articulated. [10:47] AliHashemi: Rosario* (sorry) [10:47] AmandaVizedom: There is a lot of variety in how we all view the topics, issues, and distinctions. Among our first challenges is to come to agree on a good-enough selection of tracks/foci with which to organize the content and process. I think that we all understand that the result is imperfect and has some arbitrariness to it, but the settlement and focus are necessary, especially with Summit topic that is so broad. Thank, Nicola and Leo, for setting a starting structure. [10:47] Nicola Guarino: @Simon: In many cases we need both: we need "ontology of" in order to have "ontology for"... [10:47] RosarioUceda-Sosa: I'd be very interested in following/participating. [10:47] ChrisW: Rosario: we generally take "domain" to mean the general subject area of the ontology content. I think you mean the way thte ontology is used will may require a different approach [10:48] anonymous1 morphed into Nancy Grady [10:48] AmandaVizedom: On the topic of spreading the word: twitter hashtag is #ontologysummit2012. [10:50] ArunMajumdar: General Comment: one area of challenge to me is the model based, versus data-engineering and ontology based methodologies --- I see these in my current moderate data problems and can envision the problem is of importance to big data. For example, models have implicit ontologies but many ontologies are themselves implicitly models while in other cases data or information engineering has its own ontological and model committements that are often never made explicit. I would be very keen to see any intersections that include model-based, ontology-based and data-engineering driven big data ontology approach (itself, of course, being an ontology for such). [10:50] SimonSpero: @Nicola Total agreement [10:50] AmandaVizedom: @BartG: yes, I agree. My comment was meant to point out that some non-domain-specific things had snuck in there. [10:53] SimonSpero: Administrivia Q: During the summit, there was a shared google doc editing setup. That seemed to work well, and might work well earlier in the process [10:53] SimonSpero: Is it still there? [10:54] anonymous1 morphed into KurtConrad [10:55] AmandaVizedom: @Rosario: Regarding the challenges you've encountered in your Smarter cities work: I wouldn't call those issues domain-specific; they appear in many domains. They are, however, related to the type of project in a variety of ways orthogonal to domain: e.g. the functions of the system, the uses it must support, the resources available, the technical and policy requirements that may apply, the level of complexity, etc... [10:55] ToddSchneider: Arun, these subjects and their relations should be covered in the Large-Scale Systems Engineering track [10:56] ToddSchneider: Who's speaking? [10:56] PeterYim: @SimonSpero - ref. use of google-docs - good point; let's make sure the communique lead editors, or even the track champions take that into consideration [10:56] ArunMajumdar: ThanksTom [10:56] RosarioUceda-Sosa: @Amanda: Agree. I meant that there are several basic parameters that focus the functionality and structure of the ontology [10:56] Gary Berg-Cross: Two dates were listed as possible for the Summit. How will final dates be decided and when will that be? [10:57] RosarioUceda-Sosa: @Amanda: Identifying these issues would be very useful. [10:57] FrankOlken: Regarding possible dates for the face-to-face meeting please note that Data Engineering Conference will be in DC the first week of April, and the SIAM Data Mining meeting will be April 26-28 in Anaheim, Calif. I tend to favor the later dates for the face to face April 23-24. [10:57] ArunMajumdar: I prefer April 23-24 also [10:58] ArunMajumdar: @Todd - thanks [10:58] AmandaVizedom: @Arun: IME, the issues you raise are especially strong in Federated systems and interoperability-focused projects. This is also an area that has been suggested for one or more sessions (primarily by CoryCasanave, though it looks like he is not on today). [10:59] ArunMajumdar: @Todd - let's communicate more on this: I am very keen on this. [10:59] Gary Berg-Cross: I prefer April 23-24 also. There is a Wherecon during the earlier week in April (12-13). [10:59] SimonSpero: @Rosario++ [10:59] ToddSchneider: Rosario, what your addressing is the architecture for the use of ontologies and semantic technologies. [11:00] RosarioUceda-Sosa: @Todd: Yes. [11:00] BobSchloss: I am still not sure how the various scheduled teleconferences will be used. Will each one include only 1 of the 4 tracks? Will a schedule be placed on the ontolog website sometime in the next week or two? [11:00] AliHashemi: Folks, I've got to run. Thanks to all for the effort. [11:00] Nicola Guarino: For the record, I encourage all those who are making oral questions or comments to also write them down on the chat [11:01] Nicola Guarino: @Ali: thanks for your contributions, Ali [11:01] JoelBender: @Rosario : please post your call for participation for that topic to the list [11:01] dougFoxvog: There seem to be three different levels for ontologizing: development of ontologies seems separate from an ontology of the use of ontologies [11:02] ToddSchneider: Arun, definitely. Use tjschneider-at-covad.net [11:02] dougFoxvog: OOps. editing failed . Will re-type. [11:02] RosarioUceda-Sosa: @Nicola/@Joel: Which list? this chat? [11:02] Joanne Luciano: have to leave now. thanks everyone! Looking forward to this summit. [11:03] dougFoxvog: The three levels of ontologizing being discussed seem to be * ontology of development of ontologies * ontology of the use of ontologies and * ontology of domain [11:03] BobSchloss: @Rosario -- [ontology-summit] mailing list archives - http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontology-summit/ (31H1) To subscribe to this discussion list: send a blank message from your subscribing email address to or visit http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontology-summit/ and subscribe yourself there [11:03] AmandaVizedom: @Rosario: Indeed! Have you seen the start that was made in this direction during last year's summit (http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2011_Communique)? That is just a start, but a useful one. Developing it further and building support for it is something a number of us have been looking for opportunities/means to pursue. [11:04] ArunMajumdar: @Todd - thanks, will do :) [11:04] PeterYim: @JackRing - can you re-post the message that you just typed into the "queue" box, please [11:04] MatthewWest: I have to leave now. Looks like we have a flying start. [11:04] RosarioUceda-Sosa: @Joel: This is what I propose: to spell out the usability issues for the ontology consumers (end/business users) in some of these domains. [11:04] ArunMajumdar: Bye All - I have to leave also. [11:05] RosarioUceda-Sosa: @Amanda: No, but I'll take a look at that. In the case of complex systems, the notion of an ontology consumer becomes key. [11:05] ToddSchneider: Doug, your distinctions would be represented in the architecture I mentioned earlier. [11:06] FrankOlken: Peter, The instructions for joining the teleconference via Skype were unclear - what Skype ID? I used regular phone, but would prefer to use skype in the future. [11:06] AmandaVizedom: @Rosario: I couldn't agree more. And it is often overlooked that the ontologies in these cases need to be understandable by both machines and humans, often both as part of the system's processes and as external consumers. [11:07] RosarioUceda-Sosa: @Amanda: Absolutely. Usability is not a 'topic' but a dimension that should be spelled out every time we discuss a domain. [11:08] MariaKeet: on data mining, there is the e-LICO project http://www.e-lico.eu [11:08] BobSchloss: I think we would do well to be clear about the "use cases" associated with the ontology-consumer role that @Rosario is bringing up. One use case is "become familiar with what the scope of the ontology is" -- put information into the person's head. Another use case is "be able to prepare to contribute information to the ontology conforming with its current structure and sets of types/classes/concepts". Another use case is "extend the set of concepts/types/classes/associative-relationships which are initially present in the ontology, for contributing my own information and for hoped for use by others", etc. etc. Each of these has sub usecases -- "search" "visualization" "navigation" etc etc. [11:09] GiancarloGuizzardi: In the process of engineering Large-Scale complex system we will have the situation in which multiple languages, methods and tools will have to co-exist and be integrated. Traditionally, in systems engineering, there has been for years a trend towards different manifestations of model-based approaches to address this issue. An important issue to be emphasized is that language (method) integration is a semantic interoperability problem it is about the semantic interoperation of models which happen to be language (method) metamodels. [11:09] FrankOlken: @SteveRay, I am still interested in SmartGrids. [11:10] ToddSchneider: Giancarlo, I would hope the summit would take a forward looking approach (i.e., the to-be state) and look past current practices and tools: Were do we think we can be. [11:11] PeterYim: @Frank, if you use skype, all you need to do is to skype the user by the skypeID:"joinconference" ... one way to do that is to just paste "joinconference" (without the " ") into the dial-command-line (where you would usually type in the phone number) then you will be prompted to key in a ConferenceID or the PIN ... the challenge for some is that in the latest skype software, the dial-pad is somewhat hidden ... and hence my earlier comment: Can't find Skype Dial pad? ... it's under the "Call" dropdown menu as "Show Dial pad" [11:11] DeborahMacPherson: Interested in volunteering for the Large-Scale Domain Applications Track [11:11] RosarioUceda-Sosa: I volunteer for the domain Smart Cities and E-Government, if anybody else is interested (in any capacity) [11:12] MariaKeet: i'm on skype [11:12] MariaKeet: did it with the dial pad... [11:13] GiancarloGuizzardi: @ToddSchneider: Sure. What I mentioned there is forward thinking. We are far from mastering the issue of semantic interoperability of multiple languages and models that have to co-exist in complex engineering projects. don't you agree? [11:13] Nicola Guarino: @Maria: if you dialed the number using the dial pad, then you can't unmute. Retry calling the "joinconference" SkypeID [11:13] dougFoxvog: There used to be a microphone symbol on Skype. I don't know if it still exists. Click it to remove the red bar through it. [11:14] GiancarloGuizzardi: btw, a very relevant initiative in this respect is OMG's Semantic Information Modeling for Federation: http://www.omgwiki.org/architecture-ecosystem/doku.php?id=semantic_information_modeling_for_federation_rfp [11:14] MariaKeet: yes, I'm typing [11:15] MariaKeet: I'm coalling in with the number. I just wanted to illustrate teh e-LICO project, which extends semantic scientific workflows with data mining ontolgoies and domain ontolgies [11:15] AmandaVizedom: @BobS: In fact, I'd argue that one of the challenges of Large, especially but not only federated, systems, is that all of these use cases have to be supported along with many others. I wonder whether it would make sense to build a use case that is typical of such complex cases, and a composite of individual cases we collectively have worked on (avoiding issues of publishing descriptions of any particular organization's workings). Such a use case would be a really Big Use Case, and get at so many of the different isses. It might make a good basis for a Grand Challenge? [11:15] MariaKeet: as a response on Nicolas note on looking for people who work on data mining [11:16] AliHashemi: ... My other meeting was cancelled. [11:16] ToddSchneider: Giancarlo, my view is that an ontology is a/the model and we need to provide a way to make these pervasive in the engineering process. Most current engineering tools and there embedded and non-explicit semantics make them an impediment. [11:17] ToddSchneider: How about government as a complex system? [11:17] anonymous1 morphed into BrandNiemann [11:17] SimonSpero: @Todd: chaotic? [11:18] RosarioUceda-Sosa: Yes, maybe a Smarter City is a concrete/accessible example? [11:18] Nicola Guarino: Speaking of media, let me remind everybody the twitter hashtag suggested by Amanda: #ontologysummit2012 [11:18] MariaKeet: @Giancarlo: there's an initiative for standardising dealing with multiple ontology languages in on system (ISO's wg on OntoIOp) and the Hets tool system [11:19] GiancarloGuizzardi: @ToddSchneider: Agree w.r.t. existing tools and even languages lacking explicit semantics [11:19] SteveRay: @FrankOlken: Was that you on the phone expressing interest in smart grid? I didn't catch who was talking. [11:19] SimonSpero: @Todd: the life of the law is experience, not logic. [11:19] FrankOlken: Nicola, May I suggest the possibility of shortening the hash tag to #ontosummit2012 ? It would save typing (and space). [11:19] BrandNiemann: I will write story (s) about this in AOL Government if you would like. See http://gov.aol.com/bloggers/brand-niemann/ [11:19] BartGajderowicz: @GiancarloGuizzardi: just to make the distinction between big-data and big-systems: in terms of big data, associating data with ontologies would help with semantic integration and interoperability.. if the meta-models are modelling DB record instances. This is not the case with meta-models of work-flows and processes. [11:19] ToddSchneider: How about the creation of legislation as a complex system? [11:19] Nicola Guarino: @Rosario: Do you have a specific smarter city project to consider as a case study? [11:20] GiancarloGuizzardi: @MariaKeet: thanks, I will take a look. However, I don't mean (only) multiple ontology languages. I mean multiple system engineering languages in general. [11:20] AmandaVizedom: @Nicola: actually, I'm passing along the "official" hashtag, as seen on summit home page. I would have gone for something shorter, but I lost that argument a couple of summits ago. ;-) So, #ontologysummit2012 it is! [11:21] AliHashemi: @Brand, yes please! [11:21] GiancarloGuizzardi: @BartGajderowicz: Foundational Ontologies can play a fundamental role in language interoperability [11:22] SimonSpero: @todd : http://www.springerlink.com/content/100239/ (Artificial Intelligence and Law ) [11:22] GiancarloGuizzardi: for instance, typically in these scenarios, we will have multiple process modeling languages, data modeling languages, goal modeling languages, etc... [11:23] AliHashemi: @Todd, we're looking at that for our company as well. @Simon, law ontologies have come a loooong way from there :D [11:24] GiancarloGuizzardi: How do the modeling primitives in one process language relate to the primitives in other languages? How do process primitives in different languages relate to goal modeling primitives in different goal languages etc...? [11:24] Nicola Guarino: As an example of a BIG project (proposal) concerning big systems, have a look at www.futurict.eu (still a proposal, though, although ranked first in a preliminary selection [11:24] BartGajderowicz: @GiancarloGuizzardi: absolutely agree [11:24] JoelBender: Thank you all! [11:24] SteveRay: Great start! [11:24] ToddSchneider: Simon, great. My sister is lawyer and usually discounts work in this direction. [11:24] PeterYim: great session! [11:24] RosarioUceda-Sosa: This was great. Thanks! [11:25] PeterYim: -- session ended: 11:24am PST -- [11:25] MariaKeet: thanks all, bye! [11:25] GiancarloGuizzardi: great discussion. I have to leave now but hope we can resume this in one of the sessions. bye to all and thanks. [11:25] SimonSpero: @Todd Oy, my sister is a lawyer. -----------