ppy/chat-transcript_edited_20120112b.txt Chat transcript from room: summit_20120112 2012-01-12 GMT-08:00 ----------- PeterYim: Welcome to the = OntologySummit2012 Launch Event - Thu 2012-01-12 = Topic: OntologySummit2012: "Ontology for Big Systems" Co-chairs: Dr. NicolaGuarino & Dr. LeoObrst Session page: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2012_01_12 Mute control: *7 to un-mute ... *6 to mute Can't find Skype Dial pad? ... it's under the "Call" dropdown menu as "Show Dial pad" . == Proceedings: == . anonymous morphed into BobSchloss anonymous morphed into SteveRay BobSmith1 morphed into BobSmith anonymous morphed into DougFoxvog anonymous1 morphed into GiancarloGuizzardi anonymous morphed into ChristopherSpottiswoode anonymous1 morphed into Yefim (Jeff) Zhuk mariakeet morphed into MariaKeet anonymous morphed into ElizabethFlorescu Kathy Ellis morphed into KathyEllis anonymous1 morphed into LarryLefkowitz anonymous morphed into RichardDetsch anonymous2 morphed into GaryBergCross anonymous morphed into SimonSpero anonymous3 morphed into BartGajderowicz SimonSpero: The importance of your call is high anonymous morphed into BryanThompson Line Pouchard morphed into LinePouchard nicola morphed into NicolaGuarino anonymous morphed into KarlGrossner anonymous1 morphed into RosarioUcedaSosa AliHashemi: Refresh the session page SteveRay: Slides are being uploaded as we speak. Hang on. AliHashemi: Slides usually appear there LeoObrst: Peter is still making the slides available. Stay tuned shortly. anonymous morphed into ArunMajumdar DougFoxvog: Slides are at http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/work/OntologySummit2012/2012-01-12_OntologySummit2012_Launch/ anonymous1 morphed into JimSchoening BryanThompson: How do you enter the pin into skype? AliHashemi: Click Call AliHashemi: Click Show Dial Pad AliHashemi: it's in the menu bar anonymous morphed into ChrisWelty DougFoxvog: To un-mute, press "*7" ... To mute, press "*6" ChrisWelty: hello boys and girls AliHashemi: And for the slides, remember to refresh this page: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2012_01_12 SimonSpero: Are slide decks 5 and 8 not there yet? PeterYim: @simon: hang on ... they will soon be uploaded anonymous1 morphed into MariaTeresaBiagetti RexBrooks: I'm not on the phone yet--in another meeting for next half hour. anonymous morphed into EricLittle Dalia Varanka morphed into DaliaVaranka ChrisWelty: 10 years of Ontolog - credit mainly to Peter, congrats! PeterYim: thank you, Chris. ChrisWelty morphed into a TV star SteveRay: Cute. SteveRay: 5 years, yes. RamSriram: Peter: Was the presentation on Siri in Feb 2010 or Feb 2011? PeterYim: @Ram - the Siri presentation was in Feb-2010 - see: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2010_02_25 ... in fact, after the Apr-2010 Apple acquisition, they have not been presenting their technology to the public much at all RosarioUcedaSosa: I have problems accessing Sri's slides... everybody else's connection to the server is ok? SteveRay: [a portion, relating to internal architecture of] the slides supporting the Siri talk were not stored, by request of AdamCheyer and TomGruber. There was some proprietary information there. SteveRay: Ah, confusion between Sri (aka Sriram) and Siri, as in TomGruber's talk years ago. SimonSpero: Applying results of last years summit to use cases? JoelBender: What is "large"? AliHashemi: @Rosario - it took a while to load for me to. If you are having tuoble with the slides you can also try the vnc I believe: http://vnc2.cim3.net:5800/ RosarioUcedaSosa: Got it restored now. Thx a TV star morphed into ChrisWelty DougFoxvog: The slides are not being advanced. anonymous1 morphed into ChristopherSpottiswoode SimonSpero: Are we getting in to the space of Translational Medicine? ChrisWelty: who is the person talking? AliHashemi: GeorgeStrawn anonymous2 morphed into FrankOlken RosarioUcedaSosa: Seems to me that the first three tracks and the fourth track are just two dimensions (system-based vs domain-based) of the problem. NicolaGuarino: @Rosario: indeed track 4 is orthogonal wrt the first three tracks. Some people thought it was useful to have a track explicitly focusing on applications RexBrooks: Its a bit odd that I don't have time to work on this year's summit because I'm working on some big systems, though at the ground level getting the terms and datatypes entered for emergency management systems so that larger convergences will be possible among international as well as national, state and local levels of jurisdiction. So I will probably be intermittent, and looking to learn more than contribute. SimonSpero: Big Data Management and Big Data interpretation are very, very different beasts NicolaGuarino: @Simon: Yes, indeed I expect the focus will be manly on interpretation AmandaVizedom: It's also worth noting that the fourth listed track, "Large-scale domain applications," lists some topics that meet the "domain applications" description, and some topics that are not really domain applications but rather analytics and/or implementation views on big systems (e.g., net-centricity, socio-technical aspects of large systems). NicolaGuarino: @Amanda: Yes, indeed some of these keywords need to be adjusted, clarified or possibly deleted. This will be part of future work. We wanted just to be as inclusive as possible for the time being SimonSpero: @Nicola - there's a lot of places where 'ontology of ' and 'ontology for ' are fighting BartGajderowicz: @AmandaVizedom- it may mean domain-specific applications, verses architecture related issues AmandaVizedom: @BartGajderowicz: yes, I agree. My comment was meant to point out that some non-domain-specific things had snuck in there. RosarioUcedaSosa: I mentioned the two-dimensional structure because it may help us identify the key issues in these systems. My colleague BobSchloss and I have been working on ontologies for Smarter cities and we've found challenges at the three tracks that you specify, including the fact that an ontology for Smart Cities is an 'integrating' ontology, versus a normative/prescriptive model, like in other domains. The point is that different domains may require a different approach to ontology design. AliHashemi: Rosario, I believe there will also be a preliminary session where we explore various interpretations of big systems. In the course of these discussions, I suspect the different required approaches will be articulated. AmandaVizedom: There is a lot of variety in how we all view the topics, issues, and distinctions. Among our first challenges is to come to agree on a good-enough selection of tracks/foci with which to organize the content and process. I think that we all understand that the result is imperfect and has some arbitrariness to it, but the settlement and focus are necessary, especially with Summit topic that is so broad. Thank, Nicola and Leo, for setting a starting structure. NicolaGuarino: @Simon: In many cases we need both: we need "ontology of" in order to have "ontology for"... SimonSpero: @Nicola Total agreement RosarioUcedaSosa: I'd be very interested in following/participating. ChrisWelty: Rosario: we generally take "domain" to mean the general subject area of the ontology content. I think you mean the way the ontology is used will/may require a different approach anonymous1 morphed into NancyGrady AmandaVizedom: On the topic of spreading the word: twitter hashtag is #ontologysummit2012. ArunMajumdar: General Comment: one area of challenge to me is the model based, versus data-engineering and ontology based methodologies --- I see these in my current moderate data problems and can envision the problem is of importance to big data. For example, models have implicit ontologies but many ontologies are themselves implicitly models while in other cases data or information engineering has its own ontological and model commitments that are often never made explicit. I would be very keen to see any intersections that include model-based, ontology-based and data-engineering driven big data ontology approach (itself, of course, being an ontology for such). ToddSchneider: Arun, these subjects and their relations should be covered in the Large-Scale Systems Engineering track ArunMajumdar: Thanks Todd ArunMajumdar: @Todd - thanks ArunMajumdar: @Todd - let's communicate more on this: I am very keen on this. ToddSchneider: Arun, definitely. ArunMajumdar: @Todd - thanks, will do AmandaVizedom: @Arun: IME, the issues you raise are especially strong in Federated systems and interoperability-focused projects. This is also an area that has been suggested for one or more sessions (primarily by CoryCasanave, though it looks like he is not on today). SimonSpero: Administrivia Q: During the summit, there was a shared google doc editing setup. That seemed to work well, and might work well earlier in the process SimonSpero: Is it still there? PeterYim: @SimonSpero - ref. use of google-docs - good point; let's make sure the communique lead editors, or even the track champions take that into consideration anonymous1 morphed into KurtConrad AmandaVizedom: @Rosario: Regarding the challenges you've encountered in your Smarter cities work: I wouldn't call those issues domain-specific; they appear in many domains. They are, however, related to the type of project in a variety of ways orthogonal to domain: e.g. the functions of the system, the uses it must support, the resources available, the technical and policy requirements that may apply, the level of complexity, etc... RosarioUcedaSosa: @Amanda: Agree. I meant that there are several basic parameters that focus the functionality and structure of the ontology RosarioUcedaSosa: @Amanda: Identifying these issues would be very useful. SimonSpero: @Rosario++ ToddSchneider: Rosario, what your addressing is the architecture for the use of ontologies and semantic technologies. RosarioUcedaSosa: @Todd: Yes. BobSchloss: I am still not sure how the various scheduled teleconferences will be used. Will each one include only 1 of the 4 tracks? Will a schedule be placed on the ontolog website sometime in the next week or two? GaryBergCross: Two dates were listed as possible for the Summit. How will final dates be decided and when will that be? FrankOlken: Regarding possible dates for the face-to-face meeting please note that Data Engineering Conference will be in DC the first week of April, and the SIAM Data Mining meeting will be April 26-28 in Anaheim, Calif. I tend to favor the later dates for the face to face April 23-24. ArunMajumdar: I prefer April 23-24 also GaryBergCross: I prefer April 23-24 also. There is a Wherecon during the earlier week in April (12-13). AliHashemi: Folks, I've got to run. Thanks to all for the effort. NicolaGuarino: @Ali: thanks for your contributions, Ali NicolaGuarino: For the record, I encourage all those who are making oral questions or comments to also write them down on the chat JoelBender: @Rosario : please post your call for participation for that topic to the list RosarioUcedaSosa: @Joel: This is what I propose: to spell out the usability issues for the ontology consumers (end/business users) in some of these domains. RosarioUcedaSosa: @Nicola/@Joel: Which list? this chat? BobSchloss: @Rosario -- [ontology-summit] mailing list archives - http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontology-summit/ (31H1) To subscribe to this discussion list: send a blank message from your subscribing email address to or visit http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontology-summit/ and subscribe yourself there JoanneLuciano: have to leave now. thanks everyone! Looking forward to this summit. DougFoxvog: The three levels of ontologizing being discussed seem to be * ontology of development of ontologies * ontology of the use of ontologies and * ontology of domain AmandaVizedom: @Rosario: Indeed! Have you seen the start that was made in this direction during last year's summit ( http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2011_Communique )? That is just a start, but a useful one. Developing it further and building support for it is something a number of us have been looking for opportunities/means to pursue. RosarioUcedaSosa: @Amanda: No, but I'll take a look at that. In the case of complex systems, the notion of an ontology consumer becomes key. PeterYim: @JackRing - can you re-post the message that you just typed into the "queue" box, please MatthewWest: I have to leave now. Looks like we have a flying start. ArunMajumdar: Bye All - I have to leave also. ToddSchneider: Doug, your distinctions would be represented in the architecture I mentioned earlier. FrankOlken: Peter, The instructions for joining the teleconference via Skype were unclear - what Skype ID? I used regular phone, but would prefer to use skype in the future. PeterYim: @Frank, if you use skype, all you need to do is to skype the user by the skypeID:"joinconference" ... one way to do that is to just paste "joinconference" (without the " ") into the dial-command-line (where you would usually type in the phone number) then you will be prompted to key in a ConferenceID or the PIN ... the challenge for some is that in the latest skype software, the dial-pad is somewhat hidden ... and hence my earlier comment: Can't find Skype Dial pad? ... it's under the "Call" dropdown menu as "Show Dial pad" AmandaVizedom: @Rosario: I couldn't agree more. And it is often overlooked that the ontologies in these cases need to be understandable by both machines and humans, often both as part of the system's processes and as external consumers. RosarioUcedaSosa: @Amanda: Absolutely. Usability is not a 'topic' but a dimension that should be spelled out every time we discuss a domain. MariaKeet: on data mining, there is the e-LICO project http://www.e-lico.eu ... as a response on Nicolas note on looking for people who work on data mining MariaKeet: I'm calling in with the number. I just wanted to illustrate the e-LICO project, which extends semantic scientific workflows with data mining ontologies and domain ontologies BobSchloss: I think we would do well to be clear about the "use cases" associated with the ontology-consumer role that @Rosario is bringing up. One use case is "become familiar with what the scope of the ontology is" -- put information into the person's head. Another use case is "be able to prepare to contribute information to the ontology conforming with its current structure and sets of types/classes/concepts". Another use case is "extend the set of concepts/types/classes/associative-relationships which are initially present in the ontology, for contributing my own information and for hoped for use by others", etc. etc. Each of these has sub use cases -- "search" "visualization" "navigation" etc etc. GiancarloGuizzardi: In the process of engineering Large-Scale complex system we will have the situation in which multiple languages, methods and tools will have to co-exist and be integrated. Traditionally, in systems engineering, there has been for years a trend towards different manifestations of model-based approaches to address this issue. An important issue to be emphasized is that language (method) integration is a semantic interoperability problem it is about the semantic interoperation of models which happen to be language (method) metamodels. FrankOlken: @SteveRay, I am still interested in Smart Grids. SteveRay: @FrankOlken: Was that you on the phone expressing interest in smart grid? I didn't catch who was talking. [ppy: believe that was JoelBender] ToddSchneider: Giancarlo, I would hope the summit would take a forward looking approach (i.e., the to-be state) and look past current practices and tools: Where do we think we can be. GiancarloGuizzardi: @ToddSchneider: Sure. What I mentioned there is forward thinking. We are far from mastering the issue of semantic interoperability of multiple languages and models that have to co-exist in complex engineering projects. don't you agree? DeborahMacPherson: Interested in volunteering for the Large-Scale Domain Applications Track RosarioUcedaSosa: I volunteer for the domain Smart Cities and E-Government, if anybody else is interested (in any capacity) GiancarloGuizzardi: btw, a very relevant initiative in this respect is OMG's Semantic Information Modeling for Federation: http://www.omgwiki.org/architecture-ecosystem/doku.php?id=semantic_information_modeling_for_federation_rfp AmandaVizedom: @BobS: In fact, I'd argue that one of the challenges of Large, especially but not only federated, systems, is that all of these use cases have to be supported along with many others. I wonder whether it would make sense to build a use case that is typical of such complex cases, and a composite of individual cases we collectively have worked on (avoiding issues of publishing descriptions of any particular organization's workings). Such a use case would be a really Big Use Case, and get at so many of the different issues. It might make a good basis for a Grand Challenge? RosarioUcedaSosa: Yes, maybe a Smarter City is a concrete/accessible example? NicolaGuarino: @Rosario: Do you have a specific smarter city project to consider as a case study? AliHashemi: I'm back ... My other meeting was cancelled. ToddSchneider: Giancarlo, my view is that an ontology is a/the model and we need to provide a way to make these pervasive in the engineering process. Most current engineering tools and there embedded and non-explicit semantics make them an impediment. GiancarloGuizzardi: @ToddSchneider: Agree w.r.t. existing tools and even languages lacking explicit semantics ToddSchneider: How about government as a complex system? SimonSpero: @Todd: chaotic? anonymous1 morphed into BrandNiemann NicolaGuarino: Speaking of media, let me remind everybody the twitter hashtag suggested by Amanda: #ontologysummit2012 MariaKeet: @Giancarlo: there's an initiative for standardising dealing with multiple ontology languages in one system (ISO's wg on OntoIOp) and the Hets tool system GiancarloGuizzardi: @MariaKeet: thanks, I will take a look. However, I don't mean (only) multiple ontology languages. I mean multiple system engineering languages in general. SimonSpero: @Todd: the life of the law is experience, not logic. FrankOlken: Nicola, May I suggest the possibility of shortening the hash tag to #ontosummit2012 ? It would save typing (and space). AmandaVizedom: @Nicola @Frank: actually, I'm passing along the "official" hashtag, as seen on summit home page. I would have gone for something shorter, but I lost that argument a couple of summits ago. So, #ontologysummit2012 it is! BrandNiemann: I will write story (s) about this in AOL Government if you would like. See http://gov.aol.com/bloggers/brand-niemann/ AliHashemi: @Brand, yes please! BartGajderowicz: @GiancarloGuizzardi: just to make the distinction between big-data and big-systems: in terms of big data, associating data with ontologies would help with semantic integration and interoperability.. if the meta-models are modelling DB record instances. This is not the case with meta-models of work-flows and processes. GiancarloGuizzardi: @BartGajderowicz: Foundational Ontologies can play a fundamental role in language interoperability GiancarloGuizzardi: for instance, typically in these scenarios, we will have multiple process modeling languages, data modeling languages, goal modeling languages, etc... GiancarloGuizzardi: How do the modeling primitives in one process language relate to the primitives in other languages? How do process primitives in different languages relate to goal modeling primitives in different goal languages etc...? BartGajderowicz: @GiancarloGuizzardi: absolutely agree ToddSchneider: How about the creation of legislation as a complex system? SimonSpero: @todd : http://www.springerlink.com/content/100239/ (Artificial Intelligence and Law ) ToddSchneider: Simon, great. My sister is lawyer and usually discounts work in this direction. SimonSpero: @Todd Oy, my sister is a lawyer. AliHashemi: @Todd, we're looking at that for our company as well. @Simon, law ontologies have come a loooong way from there :D NicolaGuarino: As an example of a BIG project (proposal) concerning big systems, have a look at http://www.futurict.eu (still a proposal, though, although ranked first in a preliminary selection JoelBender: Thank you all! SteveRay: Great start! PeterYim: great session! RosarioUcedaSosa: This was great. Thanks! MariaKeet: thanks all, bye! GiancarloGuizzardi: great discussion. I have to leave now but hope we can resume this in one of the sessions. bye to all and thanks. PeterYim: -- session ended: 11:24am PST --