Dear David, dear all, (01)
Thanks for all the links to the VIM document. I highly appreciate that and I
have read the document with great interest. (02)
I'll come back in a later stage on the issue of the different kinds of
quantities. (03)
A measure, to my opnion, is what in VIM, I think, is called magnitude.
Examples: 3 kg, 4 m, 5 s, etc. So, it is a construct that consists of a number
and a unit (a unit *of measure* actually!). (04)
Maybe I shoud have said that a quantity is like a *property*: it can refer
(directly or indirectly via other quantities) to a measure. I agree that it is
good to ignore time in the discussion. (05)
Best regards, Hajo (06)
________________________________ (07)
Van: uom-ontology-std-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx namens David Leal
Verzonden: vr 4-9-2009 23:57
Aan: uom-ontology-std
Onderwerp: Re: [uom-ontology-std] FW: Quantity kinds (08)
Dear Hajo, (09)
>>> Oops - Ed has just pre-empted most of the content of this e-mail :). (010)
The VIM is published on the BIPM website -
http://www.bipm.org/en/publications/guides/vim.html . I think that the
terminology in the VIM is also used in the ISO 80000 series - perhaps others
in the forum can correct me if this is wrong. (011)
>2. But then I ignore VIM, and repeat myself: couldn't we have:
>"length of my table" ---"member of" ---> "length quantity"
>"length quantity" ---"subclass of" ---> "quantity" (012)
Yes we can. In my example, there is:
"length of my table" ---"member of" ---> "length as a class of particular
quantity"
"length as a class of particular quantity" ---"member of" ---> Q2 ("kind of
quantity - as class of particular quantity") (013)
There are qualifications to the class names in my example, because we have
uncovered two possible definitions of the class "length" (at different
meta-levels) and two possible definition of the class "kind of quantity". (014)
>3. Also, according to these documents, e.g. "1.3 metre" is not a quantity,
but a measure. (015)
This is a terminology issue. Do you have a definition of "measure"? (016)
>(A quantity is like a variable, it is a reference to a value, like "1.3
metre".) (017)
In our discussion we have deliberately ignored time so far. I think that we
have assumed that "length of my table" is a shorthand for "length of my
table at my instant". If we bring in time, then we could regard "length of
my table" as a function which evaluates to give different lengths a
different times. Hence there is a bound variable "l" as follows: (018)
there exists l: l = length_of_my_table(t) (019)
Best regards,
David (020)
At 22:50 04/09/2009 +0200, you wrote:
>Dear David,
>
>Thanks for your words.
>I have to admit the example is quite complicated. There are a number of
questions that appear to me, please allow me to ask them:
>1. Maybe the most important question is (and probably only for my
information and understanding): why do we base the vocabulary on VIM? (I'm
very interested in studying VIM, but couldn't find the document. Could
someone please send me a link?) There are also other documents that we could
base our vocabulary on.
>2. But then I ignore VIM, and repeat myself: couldn't we have:
>
>"length of my table" ---"member of" ---> "length quantity"
>"length quantity" ---"subclass of" ---> "quantity"
>
>This is in accordance with some standard documents I know.
>
>3. Also, according to these documents, e.g. "1.3 metre" is not a quantity,
but a measure. (A quantity is like a variable, it is a reference to a value,
like "1.3 metre".)
>
>Again, hopefully this discussion is appreciated; it is meant to be
constructive, with the aim of working together to achieve a high-quality
vocabulary.
>
>Best regards, Hajo
>
>
>
>________________________________
>
>Van: uom-ontology-std-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx namens David Leal
>Verzonden: vr 4-9-2009 16:51
>Aan: uom-ontology-std
>Onderwerp: Re: [uom-ontology-std] FW: Quantity kinds
>
>
>
>Dear Hajo,
>
>I agree with the need to converge on a high-quality vocabulary. Until now we
>have been attempting to define the concepts and to relate them to the
>vocabulary of the VIM. This is a necessary first step, but once we are clear
>about the concepts we can suggest alternatives to the vocabulary of the VIM
>which are more in line with the usual approach in ontologies.
>
>The four quantity concepts proposed by Ed
>(http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?UoM_Ontology_Standard#nid20L3) seem
>to be where we have got to. With respect to these four quantity concepts,
>and their VIM derived names, we have:
>
>"length of my table" ---"member of" ---> Q1 ("particular quantity")
>"length of my table" ---"member of" ---> "length as a class of particular
>quantity"
>"length of my table" ---"member of" ---> "1.3 metres"
>
>"length as a class of particular quantity" ---"member of" ---> Q2 ("kind of
>quantity - as class of particular quantity")
>"length as a class of particular quantity" ---"subclass of" ---> Q1
>("particular quantity")
>
>"1.3 metres" ---"member of"---> Q3 ("magnitude of quantity")
>"1.3 metres" ---"member of"---> "length as a class of magnitude"
>"1.3 metres" ---"subclass of---> Q1 ("particular quantity")
>"1.3 metres" ---"subclass of---> "length as a class of particular quantity"
>"1.3 metres" ---"expressed by---> ("1.3, "metre")
>
>"length as a class of magnitude" ---"member of" ---> Q4 ("kind of quantity -
>as class of magnitude")
>"length as a class of magnitude" ---"subclass of" ---> Q3 ("magnitude of
>quantity")
>"length as a class of magnitude" ---"subclass of" ---> ---"powerclass
>of"---> "length as a class of particular quantity"
>
>("1.3", "metre") ---"member of"---> "quantity value"
>
>Alas this is quite complicated with four different meta-levels. Your
>proposal is a useful subset of this. There are probably other useful
>subsets, which may be why past discussions have failed to reach consensus.
>
>Best regards,
>David
>
>At 12:41 04/09/2009 +0200, you wrote:
>>Dear all,
>>
>>Please allow me to make a remark about quantity kinds. Hopefully this
>>discussion is appreciated; it is solely meant to be constructive, with
>>the aim of working together to achieve a high-quality vocabulary.
>>
>>Let me get to the point. I think we should not define a separate class
>>"quantity kind". "Kind" is an implicit part of the ontology language;
>>classes are meant to model "kinds". We should not deviate from this
>>principle, but exploit it.
>>
>>So not, for example:
>>
>>"length of my table" ---"has quantity kind"---> "length"
>>"length of my table" ---"is a"---> "quantity"
>>"length" ---"is a"---> "quantity kind"
>>
>>but:
>>
>>"length of my table" ---"is a"---> "length (quantity)"
>>"length (quantity)" ---"is a"---> "quantity"
>>
>>Best regards, Hajo Rijgersberg
>
>============================================================
>David Leal
>CAESAR Systems Limited
>registered office: 29 Somertrees Avenue, Lee, London SE12 0BS
>registered in England no. 2422371
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>mob: +44 (0)77 0702 6926
>e-mail: david.leal@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>web site: http://www.caesarsystems.co.uk <http://www.caesarsystems.co.uk/>
><http://www.caesarsystems.co.uk/>
>============================================================
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============================================================
David Leal
CAESAR Systems Limited
registered office: 29 Somertrees Avenue, Lee, London SE12 0BS
registered in England no. 2422371
tel: +44 (0)20 8857 1095
mob: +44 (0)77 0702 6926
e-mail: david.leal@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
web site: http://www.caesarsystems.co.uk <http://www.caesarsystems.co.uk/>
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