Re: [ontolog-forum] Ontologies and languages

[Thomas Johnston <tmj44p@xxxxxxx>]

Rich,

Thanks for the challenge. I would just suggest that things that are difficult to say clearly are not therefore without value. I will attempt to articulate their value as best I can.

In the meantime, indeed, let ontology engineers begin from the starting points they think best, and construct formalisms to the best of their abilities. 

On Saturday, June 20, 2015 5:54 PM, Rich Cooper <metasemantics@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

And how, exactly, does philosophy provide understanding?  So far in this thread, it hasn't provided a single concrete example. 

 

Since Pat popped off with another stink bomb, I have yet to hear one single reason, one clear explanation of worth, as to why and how, specifically, can philosophy contribute one simple clear thing to the endeavor of software engineering?  Just a lot of one-offs. 

 

Pat poops again, and returns to sleep without explaining.  You respond below, again without explaining why philosophy, of all things, has anything whatsoever to contribute to the endeavor of software engineering.  There are already ontologies in each and every software system written today.  Software engineering does require ontologies, but does not require philosophy.  And, it seems, philosophers on this list have not yet offered a single reason to the contrary.

 

Sincerely,

Rich Cooper,

Rich Cooper,

 

Chief Technology Officer,

MetaSemantics Corporation

MetaSemantics AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com

( 9 4 9 ) 5 2 5-5 7 1 2

http://www.EnglishLogicKernel.com

 

From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Obrst, Leo J.
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 2:14 PM
To: [ontolog-forum]
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Ontologies and languages

 

Yes, but the main result is that no one looks at the other side, and everyone expects the other side to provide them neat answers when needed. And then neither side understands those neat answers, and so quibble, quibble forever. Understanding involves learning about both sides. This is not rocket science. We experience it every day when we map your database/ontology into mine, and vice versa. Interoperability requires understanding. If neither party wants to understand the other side, then you do this seemingly infinite dance, which takes a LONG time.

 

If you think understanding something extraneous to your current situation and state of knowledge is important, you need to take the time to learn about it. There are no miracles, no divine statements about why you should. Otherwise, you are a dilletante. Most of us are dilletantes in the areas we don’t think are imporant to us, or crucial for our real understanding.

 

Thanks,

Leo

 

From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rich Cooper
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:34 PM
To: '[ontolog-forum] '
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Ontologies and languages

 

Dear Leo,

 

LO: Of course it helps if ontology engineers/implementors acquire a deep understanding of philosophy,

 

RC: How exactly does "a deep understanding of philosophy" help engineers?  That is certainly not obvious from the discussions here.  Most of the software people have agreed on objects and events as the basis of systems.  The philosophers on the list keep debating about perdurants and endurants, and endless ways to split hairs that have nothing to do with the software structures required by serious applications. 

 

So please, describe why you think "a deep understanding of philosophy" can help engineers?

 

LO: and if philosphers acquire a deep understanding/practice of ontology engineers/implementors.

 

RC: Unless philosophers can somehow produce a payoff, a value as seen by the said engineers, what good are they to the engineers?

 

Dilletantes on either side obscure the issues of both, and spend their time on endless argumentation.

 

So far that seems to have been the progress of this thread. 

 

Sincerely,

Rich Cooper,

Rich Cooper,

 

Chief Technology Officer,

MetaSemantics Corporation

MetaSemantics AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com

( 9 4 9 ) 5 2 5-5 7 1 2

http://www.EnglishLogicKernel.com

 

-----Original Message-----
From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Obrst, Leo J.
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 10:17 AM
To: [ontolog-forum]
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Ontologies and languages

 

John,

 

Of course it helps if ontology engineers/implementors acquire a deep understanding of philosophy, and if philosphers acquire a deep understanding/practice of ontology engineers/implementors. Dilletantes on either side obscure the issues of both, and spend their time on endless argumentation.

 

Thanks,

Leo

 

>-----Original Message-----

>From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-

>bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John F Sowa

>Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 1:31 PM

>To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Ontologies and languages

>  

>Tom,

>  

>I completely agree with you:

>  

>> What the history of Philosophy, and especially of ontology, shows us

>> is that important philosophers have not failed at the winnowing task,

>> but simply worked hard and carefully to -- with apologies for the

>> shift of metaphor -- slice the ontological pie in different ways.

>  

>I would *never* try to stifle philosophical debate.  That is absolutely

>essential for clarifying the issues and deciding what to represent, how

>to represent it, and what to do with the results.

>  

>But everything that can be implemented on a digital computer can be

>expressed in first-order logic.  Some extensions to FOL for supporting

>metalanguage and quantifying over relations and functions can simplify

>and clarify the mapping.

>  

>What we have today is a huge amount of words taken out of context from

>the vast literature of philosophy and used to decorate the formal

>notations.  It's OK to put some of those words (with citations to the

>original context) in the comments.

>  

>But the meaning of the formalism is precisely defined by the model

>theory.  None of the philosophical subtleties survive the translation

>from the original context into the software.

>  

>When you use philosophical words to decorate the formal language, they

>are *worse* than useless because they confuse *everybody*:

>  

>  1. The overwhelming majority of the programmers don't understand

>     the philosophical issues.  For them, those mysterious words

>     may have some hidden meaning.  So they carefully preserve them.

>  

>  2. If those mysterious words weren't present, the programmers

>     would examine the software to see exactly what is going on.

>     But they have a vague feeling that those words have some

>     deep power that goes beyond what is in the executable code.

>  

>  3. For the philosophers who don't understand the software,

>     they may have a comfy feeling that their ideas have somehow

>     filtered down into the implementation.  If so, they are

>     even more confused than the programmers.

>  

>  4. The result is a total breakdown in communication between

>     the philosophers and the people who develop and use the

>     software that is supposed to be based on the philosophy.

>  

>My recommendation (copy below) is to force both sides to face the fact

>that digital computers are limited to FOL (or modest variations of

>FOL).  Any terms that don't have a precisely defined mapping to FOL

>can't have any useful effect on any implementation -- but they can

>create a lot of confusion.

>  

>Therefore, the philosophers and the implementers must agree on a simple

>terminology that *both* sides understand and that has a precisely

>defined mapping to what the computer does.

>  

>John

>______________________________________________________________

>  

>As a general strategy, I would recommend:

>  

>  1. A formal logic with the barest *minimum* amount of terminology.

>     It must at least contain FOL + the option of quantifying over

>     functions and relations + the option of using metalanguage for

>     talking about whatever languages are being defined.

>  

>  2. A huge *purging* of the immense philosophical terminology

>     to a minimal set that is formally defined in the logic of #1.

>  

>  3. The option of designing an open-ended family of formal notations,

>     linear and/or graphic, that have a precise mapping to #1 and #2.

>  

>  4. There may be huge debates about how to map NL terminology

>     (including any and all terms in philosophy, science, business,

>     the arts, etc., to the terms in point #2).  But any proposed

>     solution must be defined in the logic and minimal terminology of

>     points #1 and #2 (or #3, which is defined in terms of #1 and #2).

>  

>_________________________________________________________________

>Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/

>Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/

>Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/ Community Wiki:

>http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/ To join:

>http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J

>  

 

_________________________________________________________________

Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/

Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/

Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/ Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/ To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J

 

_________________________________________________________________
Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/
To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J

_________________________________________________________________
Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/  
Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/  
Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/ 
To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J    (01)