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Re: [ontolog-forum] Looking for some pragmatic guidance on modeling rela

To: Steve Ray <steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx>, "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: <rrovetto@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 21:36:22 -0400
Message-id: <CADM4J9xUKDVZ8kNOUjEJhAje1nUpX9eWdHo5Mk0SYpp2g34teQ@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
A fascinating area. I would assume that gravitational wells, fields, motion and perhaps spacetime (regions or otherwise) would all need to be modeled with the proper interrelations in order to represent *time passing more slowly* in one location or reference frame than another.

If the goal is to model GR then I would think that talk of time simpliciter is a shorthand for (i) some aspect of spacetime, or (ii) *time slowing* is a short-hand for some curvature or dynamicity of spacetime in relation to material entities and their motion. I would think this because doesn't GR hold that there is no time or space divorced from spacetime...so there is (in whatever sense of mind-independent existence) only spacetime.

Assuming that point about GR, I've wondered for a while--and it would be relevant(if not necessary) for the conceptual and philosophical development of modeling relativistic phenomena--if (a) thinking in terms of time simpliciter without taking into account (mentally or in the symbolic model) the interrelations between "time" and "space" and "matter", and (b) if 'time' classes rather than 'spacetime' or 'space-time' classes and models just adds to the challenge and difficulties in modeling GR. This is not to say that we should not use temporal models for their practical worth, but only that perhaps some of the difficulty rests somewhere there. But I digress.

Robert Rovetto

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:07 PM, Steve Ray <steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

One thing that’s nagging me is that a satellite clock isn’t just a clock that happens to be ticking more slowly – time itself is passing more slowly in space than on earth. So if you took the earth-bound clock and put it into orbit, it would also slow down. So the tick rate is not (only) a property of the clock, but also on the depth of the gravitational well the clock happens to be in at any given time.

 

These kinds of issues are why I was hoping somebody had already modeled all this…

 

 

- Steve

 

Steven R. Ray, Ph.D.

Distinguished Research Fellow

Carnegie Mellon University

NASA Research Park

Building 23 (MS 23-11)

P.O. Box 1
Moffett Field, CA 94305-0001

Email:    steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx

Phone: (650) 587-3780

Cell:      (202) 316-6481

Skype: steverayconsulting

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From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Bottoms
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 6:01 PM
To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Looking for some pragmatic guidance on modeling relativistic time events

 

There is also an issue about reconciling (or not) times when contexts cross or merge.


This may already be addressed in current context processing such as crossing the International Dateline and time zones.

For most of these issues there is a standard time such as GMT or sidereal. Those are with respect to the Earth. Maybe there is a need for a more cosmic time standard. We are a long way from that point, but there are issues associated with planetary exploration. Recently, the rotation rate of Venus was used as a reference, and it was recently discovered that it is changing quite rapidly. As a result, targeted landing spots are out of place by as much as 20 km.

National Geographic: Venus Spinning Slower Than Thought—Scientists Stumped


On 4/8/2015 6:29 PM, Steve Ray wrote:
I didn't see anything specifically talking about different rates
of time passing
 
A clock can be any process that you believe is sufficiently
regular that it is can be adopted as a standard.  Galileo
used his heartbeat to time experiments.  That is sufficient
to establish a partial ordering.
 
If you want to relate the ticks of different clocks, then you need
to find or assume some ratio (or other function).
 
John
 
 
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