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Re: [ontolog-forum] Marvin Minsky's original memo on frames

To: "[ontolog-forum] " <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "Obrst, Leo J." <lobrst@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2014 20:25:48 +0000
Message-id: <FDFBC56B2482EE48850DB651ADF7FEB035300390@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
AI will not succeed because 75% of the AI folks think they only have to hack 
systems, and then we'll have AI. My system beats your system. Mine demonstrates 
intelligence; yours fails. Ha ha. Science: fuggedaboutit. Engineering: +1. 
    (01)

>-----Original Message-----
>From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-

>bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rich Cooper

>Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2014 6:19 PM

>To: '[ontolog-forum] '

>Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Marvin Minsky's original memo on frames

>

>JFS>>>Minsky's closing paragraph:

>>>

>>>> I cannot state strongly enough my conviction that the preoccupation with

>>>> Consistency, so valuable for Mathematical Logic, has been incredibly

>>>> destructive to those working on models of mind. At the popular level it

>>>> has produced a weird conception of the potential capabilities of machines

>>>> in general. At the "logical" level it has blocked efforts to represent

>>>> ordinary knowledge, by presenting an unreachable image of a corpus of

>>>> context-free "truths" that can stand separately by themselves. This

>>>> obsession has kept us from seeing that thinking begins with defective

>>>> networks that are slowly (if ever) refined and updated.

>

>I.e., logic is useful, but not a panacea, for implementing AI.

>

>-Rich

>

>Sincerely,

>Rich Cooper

>EnglishLogicKernel.com

>Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com

>9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2

>

>-----Original Message-----

>From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-

>bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David Whitten

>Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2014 12:40 PM

>To: [ontolog-forum]

>Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Marvin Minsky's original memo on frames

>

>Since Scott Fahlman is still living, and a professor at CMU (according

>to Wikipedia) perhaps we can get him to weigh in to how his thoughts

>about his original ideas have changed over the years.

>

>David Whitten

>

>On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Obrst, Leo J. <lobrst@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>> This original definition of Fahlman's seems nearly equivalent (isomorphic?) 
>to

>production rules in expert systems, perhaps with the agenda built-in

>(depending on how you define "available for access at once"), no?

>>

>> By the way, I really liked Fahlman's NETL, back in the day.

>>

>> Thanks,

>> Leo

>>

>>>-----Original Message-----

>>>From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-

>>>bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John F Sowa

>>>Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2014 11:59 AM

>>>To: [ontolog-forum]

>>>Subject: [ontolog-forum] Marvin Minsky's original memo on frames

>>>

>>>As Pat Hayes observed, this forum has been rehashing many ideas that

>>>have been kicked around in AI and related fields for a long time. One

>>>of the "oldies but goodies" is the term 'frame', which is now used for

>>>a very watered-down version of a much more complex and richer notion

>>>that Marvin Minsky presented in his famous AI Memo of 1974.

>>>

>>>Most people who talk about frames don't realize that the original

>>>definition was introduced in an unpublished essay by Scott Fahlman,

>>>who was a graduate student at MIT at the time.  Minsky adopted that

>>>word and quoted a large excerpt from Fahlman's essay.  He also

>>>quoted and related many other sources in AI and cognitive science.

>>>

>>>I recently happened to re-read that memo, and I was impressed by its

>>>relevance to the issues discussed in Ontolog Forum. That 40-year-old

>>>memo is still a good summary of many research problems today.  See

>>>the URL and excerpts below.

>>>

>>>And by the way, Fahlman's most successful ;-) innovation was the

>>>sideways smiley face:  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~sef/sefSmiley.htm

>>>

>>>John

>>>_______________________________________________________________

>__

>>>____

>>>

>>>Source: http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/Frames/frames.html

>>>

>>>Fahlman's original definition, quoted by Minsky:

>>>

>>>> Frame Verification: I envision a data base in which related sets

>>>> of facts and demons are grouped into packets, any number of which

>>>> can be activated or made available for access at once. A packet can

>>>> contain any number of other packets (recursively), in the sense that

>>>> if the containing packet is activated, the contained packets are

>>>> activated as well, and any data items in them become available unless

>>>> they are specifically modified or canceled. Thus, by activating a few

>>>> appropriate packets, the system can create a tailor-made execution

>>>> environment containing only the relevant portion of its global

>>>> knowledge and an appropriate set of demons. Sometimes, of course,

>>>> it will have to add specific new packets to the active set in order

>>>> to deal with some special situation, but this inconvenience will be

>>>> far less than the burden of constantly tripping over unwanted

>>>> knowledge or triggering spurious demons.

>>>

>>>Observation by the psychologist Max Wertheimer, quoted by Minsky:

>>>

>>>> If one tries to describe processes of genuine thinking in terms of

>>>> formal traditional logic, the result is often unsatisfactory; one has,

>>>> then, a series of correct operations, but the sense of the process and

>>>> what was vital, forceful, creative in it seems somehow to have evaporated

>>>> in the formulations.

>>>

>>>Minsky's opening paragraph:

>>>

>>>> It seems to me that the ingredients of most theories both in Artificial

>>>> Intelligence and in Psychology have been on the whole too minute, local,

>>>> and unstructured to account – either practically or phenomenologically 
>
>>>> for the effectiveness of common-sense thought. The "chunks" of reasoning,

>>>> language, memory, and "perception" ought to be larger and more

>structured;

>>>> their factual and procedural contents must be more intimately connected

>>>> in order to explain the apparent power and speed of mental activities.

>>>

>>>Minsky's closing paragraph:

>>>

>>>> I cannot state strongly enough my conviction that the preoccupation with

>>>> Consistency, so valuable for Mathematical Logic, has been incredibly

>>>> destructive to those working on models of mind. At the popular level it

>>>> has produced a weird conception of the potential capabilities of machines

>>>> in general. At the "logical" level it has blocked efforts to represent

>>>> ordinary knowledge, by presenting an unreachable image of a corpus of

>>>> context-free "truths" that can stand separately by themselves. This

>>>> obsession has kept us from seeing that thinking begins with defective

>>>> networks that are slowly (if ever) refined and updated.

>>>

>>>_______________________________________________________________

>__

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>>>

>>

>>

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