Re: [ontolog-forum] Types of Formal (logical) Definitions in ontology

[Alex Shkotin <alex.shkotin@xxxxxxxxx>]

Pat,

You: "All of modern mathematics, for example, can be written in FOL."

But

Let me cite from Handbook of Mathematical Logic, J. Barwise (Ed.) N-H PC, 1977, 

V.I,

p.15 "Last concept (f) [periodic group] is not a FOL concept. Let's see why..."

p.19 "2.6. There is no set of FOL axioms to describe R [real numbers] isomorphically."

Sorry my translation back to English from Russian edition of 1982.

What do you think?

Alex

2014-06-25 21:01 GMT+04:00 Pat Hayes <phayes@xxxxxxx>:

On Jun 23, 2014, at 10:25 PM, rrovetto@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

> Thank you all for the feedback thus far. A couple of quick follows-ups:

> ...

> To add context to my original question: I'd basically like to know what non-FOL/non-syllogism logical formalisms are there for ontologies?
> This question assumes that FOL is based on Aristotelean syllogistic logic. Based on my studies in philosophy FOL is essentially presented as a modern form or translation of it.

No. FOL is indeed more modern, and it 'contains' syllogistic logic, but it is far more powerful (expressive) than anything known to Aristotle. All of modern mathematics, for example, can be written in FOL. One can make out a good case that anything that can be formalized in *any* language that has a reasonable notion of 'proof', can be expressed in FOL. See http://tinyurl.com/o9a9hyc (for example) for more on this.

So the premis of your question, below, is mistaken.

> Now, my concern with this is that since syllogistic logic is not how the mind reasons

Nobody knows how the mind reasons. THe mind is certainly capable of following syllogisms, however.

> , and is also very limited (in terms of producing truthful results/consequences, and expressivity, if not other things), why isn't a non-syllogistic-based logic used for ontologies? Why is FOL used?

Actually, for the bulk of actual uses, weaker logics than FOL are used, because they are decideable. OWL-DL for example is based on description logics.

Pat Hayes

>
> If anyone can answer, or address this, I eagerly await your thoughts. Thanks.
>
> Aside from that, please continue mentioning any other logics that are used.
>
> On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 4:06 AM, Rich Cooper <rich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> By the same logic, a concept can be the product of
> 'subordinate components', or more linguistically
> aimed, 'a product of properties and behaviors'.
> The choice of alternative interpretations, or the
> choice of a component list, is the distinction
> between Mereology and other forms of logical
> representation.
>
> So unions of alternatives and products of
> component parts seem to be equivalent castings.
>
> -Rich
>
> Sincerely,
> Rich Cooper
> EnglishLogicKernel.com
> Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com
> 9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Barkmeyer, Edward J
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 2:17 PM
> To: [ontolog-forum]
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Types of Formal
> (logical) Definitions in ontology
>
> John makes an important addition to my list.  In
> addition to defining a concept as the union of a
> set of 'subordinate' concepts', it is also
> possible to define a 'class' or a 'term' (less
> clearly a 'concept') as a specific set of named
> things.  This latter is also referred to as an
> "extensional definition".  One can define 'primary
> color' as "one of red, orange, yellow, green,
> blue, indigo, violet," without being at all clear
> about what the distinguishing properties are.
>
> (I tend to think that a 'concept' should have a
> definition that involves specifying properties,
> but then "being the color red" and "being John
> Malkovich" can be considered properties.)
>
> -Ed
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontolog-forum-
> > bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John F
> Sowa
> > Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 4:47 PM
> > To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Types of Formal
> (logical) Definitions in ontology
> >
> > Ed and Pat,
> >
> > Pat raises an important point:
> >
> > PJH
> > > If all classes are defined in terms of other
> classes, where does the
> > > whole process get started?
> >
> > All three of those methods assume you have some
> classes to start:
> >
> > EJB
> > > 1) identify a more general concept and the
> delimiting characteristics
> > >    of the subordinate concept being defined
> > >    This is exactly:  An A is a B that C.
> > > 2) identify a list of subordinate concepts
> that together cover the
> > >    more general concept being defined - the
> union of other defined classes:
> > >    An A is a B or a C or a D.
> > > 3) One can also define a Class as the
> intersection of two or more classes,
> > >    but that is just a special case of (1):  An
> A is a B that is also a C.
> >
> > Those are all set forming operations.  Set
> theory has a starting method:
> >     {x | P(x)} -- the set of all x for which
> some property P is true.
> >
> > That property P can also be specified by
> enumeration:
> >     {x | x=a or x=b or x=c}
> >
> > What distinguishes a class from a set are the
> identity criteria:
> >
> >   1. Two sets S1 and S2 are identical if they
> have the same elements.
> >
> >   2. Two classes or concepts C1 and C2 are
> identical if they have the
> >      same or logically equivalent defining
> property or predicate P.
> >
> > The set of all cows, for example, changes with
> every birth or death.
> > But the concept cow is determined by an
> unchanging predicate P.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
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