Dear Mike,
Yes, it is John Searle's view I follow, though my reference is:
Searle, J.R. The construction of social reality 1995 Penguin Books ISBN-13:
978-0-14-023590-6 (01)
Regards (02)
Matthew West
Information Junction
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and Wales No. 6632177.
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SG6 2SU. (03)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-
> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Bennett
> Sent: 24 May 2013 17:41
> To: [ontolog-forum]
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Spatial Extent of Abstract Entities?
>
> Hi Matthew,
>
> To your first point, John Searle backs this up in detail in his "Making
the
> Social World", which describes an ontology of social constructs and
justifies
> their reality.
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Mike
>
> On 24/05/2013 09:48, Matthew West wrote:
> > Dear Hans,
> >
> >> Matthew,
> >>
> >> So how does one detect/ascertain the spatial extent of an
> >> organization
> > using
> >> physical phenomenology?
> >> How can one detect whether a person or an asset is a member of or
> >> owned by an organization using physical phenomenology?
> > MW: I do not accept that physical phenomenology is the only way that
> > the existence of individuals can be determined.
> >
> > MW: The way you detect the existence of an organization is by looking
> > through the paperwork. Organizations are socially constructed. They
> > exist because we say so. So you have to look for where we said so.
> > Things like employment contracts, purchases, sales, etc. That they are
> > socially constructed does not mean that what is socially constructed is
not
> physical.
> >
> >> Why do we
> >> need bar codes and RF ID tags and ID cards, etc., etc.
> >> to determine which
> >> organization some thing or body belongs to?
> > MW: I can remember a time when you did not need such things. Sigh.
> >
> >> Because this information is not
> >> detectable in physical space otherwise! In other words, the
> >> organization
> > is
> >> invisible in physical reality.
> > MW: It seems to me that you have a view of the world that puts severe
> > constraints on what can possibly exist. I can only say that I do not
> > share it.
> >
> >> It exists only in various collective
> >> mental/social realities in various ways.
> > MW: No. It is created by social agreements, but it exists as a
> > physical reality.
> >
> >> Maybe if we develop mind readers
> >> we'll be able to "sense" organizations, at least for their people
> > component,
> >> but I don't see that happening soon.
> > MW: You sense organisations by looking at the paperwork.
> >> And as to money, sure there are physical phenomena somewhere in the
> > physical
> >> manifestation of cyberspace that represent your money from one moment
> >> to
> > the
> >> next (usually in multiple locations). But try to find it with any
> >> physical sensors you care to employ. None of us would recognize the
> >> physical manifestation as money, much less ours. Much easier to
> >> connect to cyber representations of it via institutionally provided
network
> services.
> > MW: The cyber representation ARE the money. If you cannot detect it,
> > it does not exist. It is detected by computer programs that tell you
> > what the balance in your account is.
> >
> >> So what
> >> use to us is information about such money's spatial extent, as
> >> extremely
> > small
> >> as it is?
> > MW: We don't need to know what it is if we don't care. The point is
> > that it has one somewhere.
> >
> >> I'm intrigued by your distinction between establishment of the
> > organization
> >> and its existence/evolution in 4D. People agreeing is certainly an
> > activity
> >> detectable and representable in 4D, but if you weren't around at the
> >> time
> > this
> >> activity took place, you would not know that an organization was
formed.
> > And
> >> yes, people conducting activities in response to such an agreement is
> >> certainly detectable, but you would not have any way of
> >> knowing/detecting that they were conducting those activities in
> >> fulfillment of said
> > agreement
> >> through physical inspection without doing a lot of inferencing.
> > MW: This is why people write these things down, so there is evidence
> > you can refer to.
> >> By the way, my whole motivation for this discussion are people who
> >> try to develop systems which attempt to create a representation of
> >> reality from physical sensors (radars, audio, infrared, chemical,
> >> etc. etc.) that
> > includes
> >> organizational affiliation. I have never seen this work reliably,
> >> despite
> > all
> >> kinds of probabilistic inferencing in tightly constrained operational
> >> contexts. One must find sources of organizational affiliation mapped
> >> to detectable physical attributes somewhere in cyberspace, such as
> >> biometric
> > data
> >> or surrogates such as ID cards, IFF and the like. Of course, the
> >> latter
> > aren't
> >> error-free either, but a lot better than relying on physical
> >> phenomenology sensors to determine organizational affiliations
> > MW: Well, part of the physical reality you need, is the
> > paperwork/records about what has been agreed. This then enables you to
> > interpret what else is going on.
> >> So I usually ask people I meet on travel or at conferences who they
> >> work
> > for.
> >> Sometimes they wear company logo clothing, but that's not 100%
reliable.
> > And
> >> some people work for/represent multiple organizations. And we all
> >> work for ourselves, at least part of the time.
> > MW: Yes, asking people who they work for is a good strategy. I might
> > even ask for a business card.
> >
> > MW: Quite a lot of your questions have been suggesting that if I can't
> > detect what something consists of, then that thing must somehow be
> > abstract and not physical. So how about a beach? A beach is
> > constituted from grains of sand. It is practically impossible to know
> > about every grain of sand, its location, and mass. Does that make a
beach
> abstract in your eyes?
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Matthew West
> > Information Junction
> > Tel: +44 1489 880185
> > Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> > Skype: dr.matthew.west
> > matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> > https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
> > This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
> > England and Wales No. 6632177.
> > Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
> > Hertfordshire,
> > SG6 2SU.
> >
> >
> >
> >> Hans
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew
> >> West
> >> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 11:34 AM
> >> To: '[ontolog-forum] '
> >> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level
ontology?
> >>
> >> Dear Hans,
> >>
> >>> I think we've had this discussion before regarding what I called
> >> "conceptual
> >>> reality". I understand you have difficulty envisioning an
> >>> organization as
> >> not
> >>> having any spatial extent, possibly because there is almost always
> >>> some physical manifestation of the organization, such as assets and
> >> members.
> >>
> >> MW: It would be more accurate to say that I reject conceptual
> >> individuals, such as you claim organizations to be.
> >>
> >>> But
> >>> members exist physically independent of the organization, and
> >>> members come
> >> and
> >>> go while the organization continues (temporal extent independent of
> >>> any specific members).
> >>> And physical assets also have existence independent of the
> >>> organization - they continue to exist if the organization disappears
> >>> (due
> >> to
> >>> bankruptcy, for example).
> >> MW: That does not prevent organizations being constituted from
> >> temporal
> > parts
> >> of those things.
> >>
> >>> Such assets may be "owned" by the organization, but they don't
> >>> define the organization or its existence.
> >> MW: They are not what brings it into being, but what brings something
> >> into being is not usually the same as what constitutes something.
> >>
> >>> In most cases, formal
> >>> organizations are defined by a piece of paper filed with some
> >>> governing
> >> body.
> >>
> >> MW: Indeed. The agreement that the piece of paper represents is what
> > brings
> >> the organization into existence. But as I pointed out above, that is
> >> not
> > what
> >> constitutes the organization.
> >>
> >>> But even that piece of paper is not the physical manifestation of
> >>> the organization - if it gets destroyed (fire, tornado, etc.), it
> >>> will be
> >> readily
> >>> replaced.
> >> MW: Quite. See above.
> >>
> >>> Fundamentally an organization is an agreement among participants to
> >>> associate with each other for some stated purpose/duration under
> >>> some governing rules (bylaws, regulations, etc.).
> >> MW: Well to be picky, the agreement is what brings the organization
> >> into existence, it is the fulfilment of the agreement that is the
> >> organization itself.
> >>
> >>> But the physicality of the
> >>> participants doesn't define the spatial extent of the organization
> >>> except
> >> in
> >>> some fairly narrow contexts/perspectives.
> >> MW: The fulfilment of an agreement is an activity, and an activity
> >> (in 4D
> > at
> >> least) consists of the temporal parts of the participants in that
> > activity,
> >> i.e. people in their organizational roles, and assets etc in theirs.
> >>
> >>> The agreement itself has no
> >>> physicality or associated spatial extent aside from the piece of
> >>> paper
> >> that it
> >>> might be written on.
> >> MW: Agreeing is also an activity, and so has spatio-temporal extent.
> >> The
> > piece
> >> of paper is obviously a spatio-temporal extent, but at least we agree
> >> that this is not the organization.
> >>
> >>> And some organizations exist in virtual realities such as "Second
> >>> Life" with no real world spatial dimensions at all - unless you
> >> want
> >>> to argue that they exist in physical reality as bits encoded in some
> >> servers
> >>> (and backup servers) somewhere on the net.
> >> MW: Yes I do of course. That is the spatio-temporal reality in this
> >> world
> > -
> >> without it there is on second life, the question is then what does it
> >> represent. The answer is a possible world that happens in the cyber
> >> space created. These are also spatio-temporal extents, just not ones
> >> in this
> > world,
> >> and not always with the same rules.
> >>
> >>> I guess I don't see how it is
> >>> useful to know the spatial extent of those bits in order to consider
> >>> an organization as an individual.
> >>>
> >>> Let's take another example - money. What are the spatial dimensions
> >>> of
> >> your
> >>> financial assets, other than currency in your wallet and maybe a
> >>> coin collection at home? For all practical purposes, I submit that
> >>> most of our monetary assets have no discernible (or operative)
> >>> spatial dimensions,
> >> aside
> >>> from being associated with digital bits somewhere in the environs of
> >>> the planet Earth (and that may change before too long - when cloud
> >>> computing becomes "nebula computing").
> >> MW: You have answered your own question. Try having money without
> >> some physical reality. It is not possible.
> >>
> >>> Some global disaster might prove me wrong - and push for that
> >>> nebular computing environment.
> >> MW: The server farm will be somewhere, even if you do not know or
> >> care
> > where.
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Matthew West
> >> Information Junction
> >> Tel: +44 1489 880185
> >> Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> >> Skype: dr.matthew.west
> >> matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
> >> This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
> >> England
> > and
> >> Wales No. 6632177.
> >> Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
> > Hertfordshire,
> >> SG6 2SU.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hans
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew
> >>> West
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:18 AM
> >>> To: doug@xxxxxxxxxx; '[ontolog-forum] '
> >>> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level
> > ontology?
> >>> Dear Doug,
> >>>
> >>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 12:39, Matthew West wrote:
> >>>>> Dear Doug,
> >>>>> I would say that differently:
> >>>> In 4D, i would too. But i would consider the organization an
> >>>> object with
> >>> a
> >>>> temporal, but not a spatial dimension.
> >>> MW: That is a rather half hearted 4 dimensionalism. I go for strong
> >>> 4D
> >> which
> >>> has the 4D extent as the identity of any individual (not a set or
> >>> relationship). So I do not even know what it means to exist if you
> >>> have a temporal but not a spatial extent.
> >>> In the strong 4D that I use, an organization consists of the
> >>> temporal
> >> parts of
> >>> the people involved in it, whilst they are in an organizational role.
> >>> Note that I have no problem constructing one kind of object out of
> >>> the temporal parts of another kind (or kinds) of object.
> >>> In any case, given the nature of space-time, I don't know what it
> >>> means
> >> to
> >>> exist with a temporal extent, but no spatial extent.
> >>> I therefore reject abstract individuals as an unnecessary commitment.
> >>>>>> I consider the team to be an organization. People become for a
> >>>>>> time organizational members. That is a relationship between them
> >>>>>> and the intangible organization.
> >>>>> MW: I would say that there is temporal part of the person that is
> >>>>> a spatio-temporal part of the organization. There is also the
> >>>>> matter of the role they play, but that is another matter.
> >>>> I would say that there is a temporal part of a person that plays
> >>>> the role
> >>> of
> >>>> member in the organization. I would not consider that temporal
> >>>> part of
> >>> the
> >>>> person to be a spatial part of a non-spatial organization.
> >>> MW: As I said above. Given the nature of space-time I don't know
> >>> what it
> >> is to
> >>> exist with a temporal extent without also having a spatial extent.
> >>>> Would you say, "Part of the Red Sox has a daughter named Sue."?
> >>> MW: That strikes me as rather unlikely, but not impossible. Let us
> >>> look at
> >> the
> >>> case. Presumably you do not mean any part of the Red Sox (say all
> >>> the pitchers, or the right arm of one of them) but a particular
> >>> player. Of
> >> course,
> >>> a particular player is not the whole life of the person, but the
> >>> temporal
> >> part
> >>> of the person whilst they are a player for the Red Sox. Now what has
> >>> a daughter is a father (or mother - but I am going to presume that
> >>> there are
> >> no
> >>> women players for the Red Sox). The father is the temporal part of
> >>> the
> >> person
> >>> from when the daughter is born until they die (I presume that you
> >>> remain a father until your death, even if your daughter dies before
> >>> you
> >>> - you could make other choices). Now it is true that a Red Sox
> >>> player has
> >> a
> >>> daughter if the temporal part of the person is identical to (has the
> >>> same spatio-temporal extent) as the father of the daughter. That is
> >>> unlikely,
> >> but
> >>> if the person who had a temporal part that was a Red Sox Player, and
> >>> had a temporal part that was a father and the daughter was born
> >>> exactly when
> >> they
> >>> joined the Red Sox and they died whilst still a Red Sox player, then
> >> indeed, a
> >>> part of the Red Sox would have a daughter.
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> Matthew West
> >>> Information Junction
> >>> Tel: +44 1489 880185
> >>> Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> >>> Skype: dr.matthew.west
> >>> matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> >>> https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
> >>> This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
> >>> England
> >> and
> >>> Wales No. 6632177.
> >>> Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
> >> Hertfordshire,
> >>> SG6 2SU.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> -- doug foxvog
> >>>>
> >>>>> Regards
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Matthew West
> >>>>> Information Junction
> >>>>> Tel: +44 1489 880185
> >>>>> Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> >>>>> Skype: dr.matthew.west
> >>>>> matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>> http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> >>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
> >>>>> This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
> >>>>> England and Wales No. 6632177.
> >>>>> Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
> >>>>> Hertfordshire,
> >>>>> SG6 2SU.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
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