Re: [ontolog-forum] [ontology-summit] System Components

["Rich Cooper" <rich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Dear Doug,

Thanks for the description of the Cyc methodology; it seems enlightening. 

You wrote:

It might be interesting to design such a system to find the holes in the Swiss cheese of a system such as Cyc, to determine what needs to be known in order to describe various concepts at a "sufficiently" complete level (for a given general context).

But isn't this exactly what CycLists have been doing for decades without reaching the end, or even without reaching a moderately competent linguistic engine? 

It seems to me that text corpora, which I suggested and you replied to, might not be the way to develop child level AI linguistics capability after all.  Perhaps instead, the amazing success of very, very simple approaches like Parry, and the equivalent designs which have been successful in very small ways show a hint of what needs to be done. 

That is, an embodied, experiencing agent which takes conversations with others, learns from the conversations, identifies the individuality of the speakers, and correlates that individuality with the linguistic evidence might be more feasible.  It seems to me that is what people do from infancy.  Reading and writing text is much harder; they have to be taught to do so, but they learn to speak fluently on their own. 

Parry and its ilk were extremely limited, yet some people found their conversations to be at least slightly interesting.  Nobody has been fully taken in by such a mechanism yet, but by adding the embodied, experiencing part, perhaps that is yet to come. 

Thanks for explaining Cyc's innards,

-Rich

Sincerely,

Rich Cooper

EnglishLogicKernel.com

Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com

9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2

-----Original Message-----
From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of doug foxvog
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 8:37 AM
To: [ontolog-forum]; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] [ontology-summit] System Components

On Mon, February 13, 2012 11:38 "Rich Cooper"

<rich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Sorry for the delay in responding; I finally got

> time to study the Cyc statements versus the

> questions in the discussion below.  Looking at the

> CycL statements, (with intensity), it appears to

> have a nicely structured type system, and seems to

> solve all the problems mentioned in the

> discussion.

Many of them, anyway.

> How difficult would it be to build a program that

> would learn these kinds of distinctions from

> available texts corpora?

It would take staff millennia to do this from scratch.

This has been the dream of Cyc since its beginning: to

be able to learn through reading text.  The problem that so much of what

an author wishes to convey in a text is unstated.  The assumptions that

the author expects the reader to use are unstated.  Cyc's dream has been

to encode those assumptions.

A more interesting question might be how difficult it would be to

learn more such distinctions from the text corpora, given the

background knowledge already encoded.

In order to learn distinctions from text corpora, enough of the meaning

is necessary in order for an oracle reviewing the reading to determine

what information is missing from a full description (at some level of

detail).  In order to do this, the system has to encode what type of

information is needed for a full (enough) description of the specific

type of situation.

It might be interesting to design such a system to find the holes in the

Swiss cheese of a system such as Cyc, to determine what needs to be

known in order to describe various concepts at a "sufficiently" complete

level (for a given general context).

>  I.e., that organizations are slightly different than individuals;

Such basic information has already been encoded.  One might want to

learn more distinctions in the ways organizations and individuals act.

> that certain kinds of organizations through their

> representatives act similarly to other kinds,

> and to otherwise develop structures that compact the

> representation to a most dense order?

> It seems that the way in which words (such as

> "organization", "organizations", "Bishopric" ...)

> are used in context should provide some

> statistical narrowing which could focus a learning

> mechanism (like AIXI) to compact the

> representation automatically.

Noting that the prior would be based on multiple already defined

denotations of each term.

> Of course, that approach has been tried in many

> variants - unsupervised learning of vocabularies

> from corpora - with varied results.  But is there

> an analysis of the structure of an arbitrary

> corpus, using an arbitrary software tool that is

> believed reliable by its history of past

> production success?

Do you want to analyze corpus structure -- or meanings

of the text in the structure?  If it is merely structure, a

ROT13 of the corpus would give you the same structural

analysis.

I submit that one would need to already have a set of

known denotations in order to determine previously undescribed

properties of, say, organizations.

-- doug f

> I am reading Graeme Hirst's excellent book

> "Semantic Interpretation and the Resolution of

> Ambiguity" which was recommended here a couple

> weeks ago, and it points out some of the

> structural ideas behind disambiguation very

> clearly.  Some of these ideas, along with software

> tools to analyze n-grams and collocations of

> various kinds, ought to at least leverage labor in

> the analysis of corpora.  Have there been any

> landmark papers or studies or other descriptions

> of such analyses?

>

> Thanks for any references,

> -Rich

>

> Sincerely,

> Rich Cooper

> EnglishLogicKernel.com

> Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com

> 9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On

> Behalf Of doug foxvog

> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 10:47 PM

> To: 'Ontology Summit 2012 discussion';

> [ontolog-forum]

> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] [ontology-summit]

> System Components

>

>> And if something (in Cyc?) is intangible, does

> it have spatio-temporal

>> location?

>

> If it is a #$SpatialThing-Localized, it has a

> spatial location and a

> temporal location, but a Platonic circle is a

> spatial thing without a

> location, while an agreement has a temporal

> location but not a

> spatial one.

>

> #$Situations, including #$Events are considered to

> be intangible,

> even if they have physical participants and

> results.

>

> Does an organization, e.g., IBM have a spatial

> location and extent?

> Does it have a physical size, a physical shape, a

> weight or mass?

> It can take an action (through a representative)

> any place that

> representatives is.   An organization certainly

> has a temporal location.

> I would suggest that it does not have a physical

> extent or location.

> Its representatives, employees, head office,

> outlets, manufacturing,

> and service facilities all have physical extents

> and locations.  The

> location of my property or my representatives do

> not define my

> location -- why should it do so for an

> organization?

>

> The same analysis holds for the Anglican Church or

> any of its

> suborganizations.  I would hold that a bishopric

> (as an organization

> sole) is a suborganization of the church.  When

> the holder of the

> office moves around, that shouldn't (imo) mean

> that the office

> moves around.

>

>> E.g. The Bishop of Liverpool was in Manchester

> yesterday.

>

> This is where ontologies win over natural

> language.  I previously

> said that we were discussing three things, an

> organization sole

> (the office of bishop, or bishopric), the person

> holding that office,

> and the situation of that person holding that

> office (which can be

> represented by a relation that holds during some

> time interval

> between the person and the office).  The word

> "bishop" can refer

> to any of these inter-related things.

>

> In CycL:

>  First define your terms:

>   (isa bishopOf BinaryPredicate)

>   (arg1Isa bishopOf HumanAdult)

>   (arg1Isa bishopOf Bishop-Clerical)

>   (arg2Isa bishopOf Bishopric)

>   (genlInverse bishopOf hasLeader)

>

>   (isa Bishopric ExistingObjectType)

>   (genls Bishopric ReligiousOrganization)

>   (genls Bishopric OrganizationSole)

>

>   (isa AnglicanBishopric ExistingObjectType)

>   (genls AnglicanBishopric Bishopric)

>

>   (isa Bishop-TheWord EnglishWord)

>   (singular Bishop-TheWord "bishop")

>   (denotation Bishop-TheWord Noun 0 Bishopric)

>   (denotation Bishop-TheWord Noun 1

> Bishop-Clerical)

>   (denotation Bishop-TheWord Noun 2

> Bishop-ChessPiece)

>   (denotation Bishop-TheWord Noun 3 bishopOf)

>   (compoundString Bishop-TheWord "of" Noun

> bishopOf)

>   <other more complex NL assertions>

>

>  Then define your data (in a different

> microtheory):

>   (holdsDuring

>      (TimeIntervalBetweenFn (YearFn 1880)

> Now-Indexical)

>      (isa BishopricOfLiverpool AnglicanBishopric))

>

>   (compoundString Bishop-TheWord "of Liverpool"

> Noun

>                           BishopricOfLiverpool )

>

>   (isa JamesStuartJones

>   (holdsDuring

>      (TimeIntervalBetweenFn (YearFn 1998)

> Now-Indexical)

>      (bishopOf JamesStuartJones

> BishopricOfLiverpool))

>

>> Can something intangible do things? If so, is

> there some physics to

>> support this?

>

> An organization does things through its authorized

> representatives.

> An account automatically charges or grants

> interest even though it

> is not physical.

>

>> E.g. The Bishop of Liverpool said Mass in

> Manchester yesterday.

>

> This English phrase means that the person who held

> the office of

> Bishop of Liverpool yesterday performed a specific

> role in a specific

> type of church service yesterday.  After finding a

> match for

>   (holdsDuring Yesterday-Indexical

>      (bishopOf ?SUBJECT BishopricOfLiverpool))

> create an instance of #$ChurchService  (or

> #$Mass-Ritual if that

> were ontologized), assert for that instance (here

> called ?MASS)

>   (temporallySubsumes Yesterday-Indexical ?MASS)

>   (eventLocation ?MASS (TerritoryFn

> CityOfManchesterEngland))

>   (providerOfService ?SUBJECT ?MASS)

>

> FWIW, I would consider an organization to be

> intangible (see my

> discussion of organizations above), but Cyc has

> not defined it that way.

> Cyc is not perfect -- nor am i.

>

> [Oops.  I left out ontologizing the situation type

> of someone holding

> the office.  But it's late.  I'm going to post

> this anyway.  I hope you

> get the idea anyway.]

>

> -- doug

>

>>

>>> -----Original Message-----

>>> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

> [mailto:ontology-summit-

>>> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of doug

> foxvog

>>> Sent: 01 February 2012 07:00

>>> To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion

>>> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] System

> Components

>>>

>>> >>what happens when the next person gets

> instantiated as the (same)

>> bishop?

>>>

>>> > Here is one take on it (without mentioning

> 4D?) The role of bishop of

>>> > Liverpool was used by Person A for

> time-period 100.

>>> > That role may be used by Person B for the

> next time period 101.  You

>>> > may identify this triple relationship as you

> wish.

>>>

>>> We are talking about three things, not two, the

> corporation sole, the

>>> role

>> of

>>> bishop, and the person who occupies the role of

> bishop for a given

>> bishopric.

>>>

>>> The Bishopric is an intangible individual (like

> a corporation) that can

>> own

>>> property and has been granted authority to

> perform certain kinds of

>>> acts.

>>>

>>> A Person while performing the role of Bishop,

> has the derived authority

>>> to

>>> perform the actions which the Bishopric is

> permitted.  This is the same

>>> as

>> any

>>> other corporate officer being permitted to act

> in the name of her

>> corporation

>>> when authorized.

>>>

>>> -- doug f

>>>

>>>

>>> > Regards,

>>> > Gary

>>> >

>>> >

>>> > On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Chris

> Partridge

>>> > <partridgec@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>>> >> wrote:

>>> >

>>> >> It looks like you are describing something

> similar to a qua object,

>>> >> which has no identity.****

>>> >>

>>> >> Not sure we are talking about the same

> thing. Bishop in this case is

>>> >> a particular bishop, such as the 'Bishop of

> Liverpool' - a

>>> >> corporation sole, a legal person. If we take

> the approach you

>>> >> suggest, what happens when the next person

> gets instantiated as the

>>> >> (same) bishop. In what sense is it the

> 'same' bishop - the bishop

>>> >> continues to own the land, etc.****

>>> >>

>>> >> Wouldn't Occam's razor prefer a simple

> agent.****

>>> >>

>>> >> ** **

>>> >>

>>> >> Regards,****

>>> >>

>>> >> Chris ****

>>> >>

>>> >> ** **

>>> >>

>>> >> *From:*

> ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:

>>> >> ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

> *On Behalf Of *Gary

>>> >> Berg-Cross

>>> >> *Sent:* 31 January 2012 21:47

>>> >>

>>> >> *To:* Ontology Summit 2012 discussion

>>> >> *Subject:* Re: [ontology-summit] System

> Components****

>>> >>

>>> >> ** **

>>> >>

>>> >> Chris,

>>> >>

>>> >> Chris noted>I find it odd that a qua object

> can own property, have

>>> >> responsibilities, declare war (Monarchs),

> etc. - which the person

>>> >> cannot do.

>>> >>

>>> >> Thematic roles may be thought of as a set of

> types when objects

>>> >> participate in processes.  There is a

> general notion of the role, but

>>> >> it gets instantiated in an object, such as a

> person who has a bishop

>>> >> role and thus participates in the bishop

> processes.****

>>> >>

>>> >> Gary Berg-Cross, Ph.D.   ****

>>> >>

>>> >> gbergcross@xxxxxxxxx      ****

>>> >>

>>> >>

> http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?GaryBergCr

> oss****

>>> >>

>>> >> NSF INTEROP Project  ****

>>> >>

>>> >>

> http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardN

> umber=0955816

>>> ****

>>> >>

>>> >> SOCoP Executive Secretary****

>>> >>

>>> >> Knowledge Strategies     ****

>>> >>

>>> >> Potomac, MD****

>>> >>

>>> >> 240-426-0770****

>>> >>

>>> >> ** **

>>> >>

>>> >> On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 1:05 PM, Chris

> Partridge <

>>> >> partridgec@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:****

>>> >>

>>> >> You will find references to 'bishop' in the

> article.****

>>> >>

>>> >> I understand that Nicola and Giancarlo (and

> others) would regard

>>> >> 'bishop'

>>> >> as a role, qua object, etc.****

>>> >>

>>> >> Historically this 'role' was introduced to

> ensure that legal title to

>>> >> property given to the church remained with

> the bishop (corporation

>>> >> sole) rather than inherited by his kin. It

> was then extended to

>>> >> monarchs.****

>>> >>

>>> >> I find it odd that a qua object can own

> property, have

>>> >> responsibilities, declare war (Monarchs),

> etc. - which the person

>>> >> cannot do.****

>>> >>

>>> >> I also cannot see how this would work if the

> corporation sole did not

>>> >> have some kind of identity.****

>>> >>

>>> >>  ****

>>> >>

>>> >> *From:*

> ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:

>>> >> ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

> *On Behalf Of *Jack Ring

>>> >> *Sent:* 31 January 2012 13:24****

>>> >>

>>> >>

>>> >> *To:* Ontology Summit 2012 discussion

>>> >> *Subject:* Re: [ontology-summit] System

> Components****

>>> >>

>>> >>  ****

>>> >>

>>> >> I do not find 'role' mentioned in the given

> URL regarding 'sole'****

>>> >>

>>> >> Elsewhere in widipedia is "role posits the

> following about social

>>> >> behaviour: #3. Roles are occupied by

> individuals, who are called

>>> >> actors<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actors>

>>> >> ."****

>>> >>

>>> >> Overall It seems that role specifies a

> location in a coordinate

>>> >> system, not an operator such as actor.****

>>> >>

>>> >>  ****

>>> >>

>>> >> Seems to me that the ****

>>> >>

>>> >> On Jan 31, 2012, at 1:50 AM, Chris Partridge

> wrote:****

>>> >>

>>> >> ** **

>>> >>

>>> >> One sense, for another see e.g.

>>> >>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole****

>>> >>

>>> >> 'role' covers a wide variety of meanings****

>>> >>

>>> >>  ****

>>> >>

>>> >> *From:*

> ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:

>>> >> ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

> *On Behalf Of *Jack Ring

>>> >> *Sent:* 30 January 2012 23:33

>>> >> *To:* Ontology Summit 2012 discussion

>>> >> *Subject:* Re: [ontology-summit] System

> Components****

>>> >>

>>> >>  ****

>>> >>

>>> >> According to David Taylor, Object Technology

> for Managers, role is

>>> >> simply an authorization to act, not the

> operator that acts. Operators

>>> >> inherit roles then process operands

> accordingly. ****

>>> >>

>>> >>  ****

>>> >>

>>> >> On Jan 30, 2012, at 3:50 PM, Nicola Guarino

> wrote:****

>>> >>

>>> >>

>>> >>

>>> >> ****

>>> >>

>>> >> Dear Matthew, ****

>>> >>

>>> >>  ****

>>> >>

>>> >>           just a few clarifications

> concerning my lab's work. Note

>>> >> that I am just trying to catch up with the

> (main points of the)

>>> >> discussion, and I am probably missing many

> things. I look forward to

>>> >> seeing the discussion synthesised somewhere,

> in order to allow

>>> >> everybody to understand how we

>>> >> progress.****

>>> >>

>>> >>  ****

>>> >>

>>> >> Matthew West writes (answering to Giancarlo

> Guizzardi):****

>>> >>

>>> >> An alternative to this issue can be thought

> of by considering qua

>>> >> individuals

>>> >>

> (e.g.http://www.loa.istc.cnr.it/Papers/KR04MasoloC

> .pdf)****

>>> >>

>>> >>  ****

>>> >>

>>> >> MW: This is very similar to the 4D, but is

> relatively opaque, and

>>> >> gives more individuals than if you adopt

> extensional identity in 4D.

>>> >> In this case playing multiple roles

> simultaneously does not give

>>> >> multiple states, but one state playing

> multiple roles. A bit more

>>> >> elegant I think.****

>>> >>

>>> >>  ****

>>> >>

>>> >> or perspectiles

>>> >>

> http://www.loa.istc.cnr.it/Papers/BottazziFerrario

> PerspectilesEuroCog

>>> >> Sciv.pdf

>>> >> ). ****

>>> >>

>>> >>  ****

>>> >>

>>> >> MW: This seems to generalise the idea above

> a bit. One problem I have

>>> >> with both of these is that (if I understand

> it correctly) they treat

>>> >> social and other roles as purely classes.

> This gives me a problem if

>>> >> I want to shake the hand of the president,

> or start P101, because

>>> >> classes are abstract, and these are just

> things you can't do to them.

>>> >> This is central to what I find

> unsatisfactory with these kinds of

>>> >> approaches. The situation is confused by

> there being several

>>> >> different meanings to role, from the

> participant role in an activity

>>> >> or state, to the component in a system, or

> social role with

>>> >> significant differences in character between

> them.****

>>> >>

>>> >>  ****

>>> >>

>>> >> The second paper is still work in progress,

> while the first one is

>>> >> more established. In both cases, however,

> for sure the approach does

>>> >> not only admit roles as "pure classes", and

> new kinds of individuals

>>> >> are introduced.

>>> >> I defend a similar, although slightly

> different approach in the paper

>>> >> below, which explicitly considers the parts

> replacement problem

>>> >> (among other things) by introducing the

> notion of a "virtual

>>> >> individual" (NOTE

>>> >> -

>>> >> this is still a draft - comments

> welcome):****

>>> >>

>>> >>  ****

>>> >>

>>> >>

> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7903842/Guarino-Functional

> PartsFunctionalRole

>>> >> s.pdf

>>> >> ****

>>> >>

>>> >>  ****

>>> >>

>>> >> Best,****

>>> >>

>>> >>  ****

>>> >>

>>> >> Nicola****

>>> >>

>>> >>

>>> >>

>>>

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>>> >>

>>> >>

>>> >>

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>>> >

>>> > --

>>> > Gary Berg-Cross, Ph.D.

>>> > gbergcross@xxxxxxxxx

>>> >

> http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?GaryBergCr

> oss

>>> > NSF INTEROP Project

>>> >

> http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardN

> umber=0955816

>>> > SOCoP Executive Secretary

>>> > Knowledge Strategies

>>> > Potomac, MD

>>> > 240-426-0770

>>> >

>>> >

>>>

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