Re: [ontolog-forum] Ontology of Self Interest

["Rich Cooper" <rich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Dear John,

You wrote:

But adding personality to the bacteria creates complications that we should avoid in the definitions at the lowest levels.

Working in AI over the decades, I have learned that people rampantly anthropomorphize EVERYTHING, even inanimate objects.  It is easier for us to project our own personalities onto these other forms than to treat them as cogs and gears.  But I agree that the REASON why Strepta did her own functions without "knowing" the other bacteria is not due to her sterling personality. 

-Rich

Sincerely,

Rich Cooper

EnglishLogicKernel.com

Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com

9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2

-----Original Message-----
From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John F. Sowa
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 11:28 AM
To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Ontology of Self Interest

Rich, Richard, Avril, and Azamat,

I'll start with the following point by Azamat:

AA

> I believe these human issues are more actual than the talks about

> the microorganisms self-interests...

Aristotle definitely considered politics, which he discussed in his

books on ethics and in his treatise on the constitution of Athens.

In addition to Athens, he and his students compiled studies of the

legal and political systems of all the cities and states in the

ancient world.

But in his analysis of psychology and motivation, he treated the

human psyche as one end of a continuum from the vegetative psyche

of plants up to the rational (human) psyche.  If he had been aware

of bacteria, he would be been delighted to add another level.  He

very well understood the importance of recognizing and analyzing

the differences at each level.

RC

> One bacterium, Strepta, senses a chemical gradient she associates

> with problems to come.  So Strepta sends a chemical message M to

> the film at large.

>

> Further away in the film, Chlamy identifies the message...

An important reason for going all the way down to bacteria is that

we need to consider messages and message interpretation as processes

performed by living things without having to consider consciousness

and other complications.  That enables us to develop a definition of

purpose that can be generalized to robots as well as living things.

But adding personality to the bacteria creates complications that

we should avoid in the definitions at the lowest levels.

RV

> I do not necessarily think an “ontology of self-interest” is what has

> the most utility. I find it more useful to think about an “ontology

> of knowledge” itself, where knowledge is an emergent property of

> an evolutionary system.

I agree.  That is a reason why Aristotle started with the vegetative

psyche at the bottom and asked what more was needed at each level

to support added functionality.

AS

> The hierarchy of levels is central to e.g. David

> Bohm's ontology and a good intro to that can be found e.g. from Paavo

> Pylkkänen's Mind, Matter and the Implicate Order.

I think Aristotle would agree.

There's much more to be said, and I'll write more later.

John

 

_________________________________________________________________

Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/ 

Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/ 

Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/

Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/

To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J

 

_________________________________________________________________
Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/  
Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/  
Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/ 
To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J    (01)