Peter, (01)
I would say it is the other way - architects design but don't "execute" in
the sense of implementing someone else's design. Engineers spend far more
time in specifying, designing and managing the development of systems than
in execution on the bench, which has essentially disappeared. Most
engineers today NEVER execute. They document, manage, direct, market,
propose, and negotiate based on designs, with whatever design and
development that might be done after the sale or contract signing. (02)
-Rich (03)
Sincerely,
Rich Cooper
EnglishLogicKernel.com
Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com
9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2 (04)
-----Original Message-----
From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Research
PeterFBrown.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 5:05 PM
To: edbark@xxxxxxxx; [ontolog-forum]
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] I ontologise, you ontologise, we all mess up...
(was: Modeling a money transferring scenario, or any of a range of similar
dialogues) (05)
Sorry, engineers execute they don't design - what you describe is the work
of an architect.
Peter (06)
Sent from my Phone - Apologies for brevity and typos: it's hard writing on a
moving planet (07)
-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Barkmeyer
Sent: Tuesday, 11 January, 2011 13:56
To: [ontolog-forum]
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] I ontologise, you ontologise, we all mess up...
(was: Modeling a money transferring scenario, or any of a range of similar
dialogues) (08)
> +1
>
> I was about to write almost exactly what Chris wrote below. An ontology
> is an artifact that performs a function. Engineers design artifacts
> that perform functions. Thus the term.
>
> Peter is right that 'ontology engineers' and 'knowledge engineers' and
> 'computer systems analysts' may tend to inject their ideas and
> misunderstandings into their artifacts. But part of that is that
> encoding knowledge involves a certain amount of understanding of that
> knowledge by the knowledge engineer. There is a fine line between
> rephrasing what you think was said for the purpose of clarifying what
> the expert said, and injecting your own understanding into the model.
> The related problem is the erroneous belief that your technology is
> powerful enough to represent exactly the knowledge that is needed, which
> causes you to dismiss what you don't know how to represent, as opposed
> to wondering whether your product will be able to perform the intended
> function.
>
> I repeat what I said earlier about the hubris of engineers -- many
> engineers think they can quickly master any related subject sufficiently
> for their work, and knowledge engineers are no exception. Like any
> trade, there is a spectrum of competence, and the high end practitioners
> are experienced enough to know when they are out of their depth. (As a
> journeyman software engineer working with a physicist to debug a
> program, I pushed deeper and deeper into the mathematics. At some
> point, the physicist said to me, "I don't know how much nuclear magnetic
> resonance I can teach you in an hour!" Point taken!)
>
> -Ed
>
> "The greatest enemy of Knowledge is not Ignorance,
> it is the Illusion of Knowledge."
> -- Stephen Hawking
>
>
>
>
> Christopher Menzel wrote:
>> On Jan 11, 2011, at 1:49 PM, Peter Brown wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>> I remain baffled by the terms (and the presumed concepts behind them -
which are *not* clear at all) of 'ontology engineer' and 'ontology
engineering'. I do not think that one can 'engineer' an ontology any more
than one can engineer a meeting: one can bring skills, methods and tools to
the meeting (as Chair of a meeting for example) and can make sometimes
significant progress even in ignorance of the subject of the meeting - if
the purpose of the role of Chair is to help the meeting to come to some
conclusion. However, once a Chair starts to pronounce on matters and get
involved in the substance of a meeting, those skills and methods become
overshadowed by their ignorance or partisanship.
>>>
>>
>> Hello Peter,
>>
>> I don't understand your analogy. An ontology is a concrete artifact
(unlike a meeting). And, like the production of any quality artifact, the
production of a good ontology requires training and expertise. On the face
of it, anyway, "ontology engineer" seems a reasonable title for those with
the appropriate training and expertise. (Opinions vary, of course,
regarding the nature and extent of such training and expertise.)
>>
>> I have to say that I don't see how an ontology is in any way enough like
a meeting to support your argument that, because it makes no sense to
engineer a meeting, it makes no sense to engineer an ontology.
>>
>> -chris
>>
>>
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>
> --
> Edward J. Barkmeyer Email: edbark@xxxxxxxx
> National Institute of Standards & Technology
> Manufacturing Systems Integration Division
> 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8263 Tel: +1 301-975-3528
> Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8263 Cel: +1 240-672-5800
>
> "The opinions expressed above do not reflect consensus of NIST,
> and have not been reviewed by any Government authority."
>
>
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