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Re: [ontolog-forum] Language vs Logic

To: edbark@xxxxxxxx, "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Pavithra <pavithra_kenjige@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 17:03:56 -0700 (PDT)
Message-id: <467623.41375.qm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Ed,

Logical data modeling has been in place as long as data bases. Data base technology  mostly addressed static, stored information and record manipulation, and some processing  of stored information.    In data bases data is not real time.    There is only so much one can do with Data bases.   But what you can do with DB, probably one can do really well because the technology has been in use for so long.

With Ontology, we started taking about conceptual information modeling,  with potential to model life sciences like  bio medical ontology, GIS and GPS, should include meta data that handle real time processing and data

I think Ontology tools should provide more close to real life ability rather than static stored information in form of records..

I agree in many modeling concepts there are similar relationship concepts.   There were papers from Barry Smith that specified some of the relationship concepts that supported  BFO, 

I think we should have formal discussions regarding current day Ontology that supports Semantics vs Tradition data base technology to clarify what is that we are trying to achieve with current day Ontology that supports Semantic web? 

Who is up for it?

Pavithra






--- On Tue, 9/14/10, Edward Barkmeyer <edward.barkmeyer@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

From: Edward Barkmeyer <edward.barkmeyer@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Language vs Logic
To: "Rich Cooper" <rich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "'[ontolog-forum] '" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 3:21 PM

Rich,

I wrote:

> Further, the human
>
> engineers must be familiar with the application domain, and have access
>
> to the business experts and some of the software engineers.
>

Rich wrote:
>

>
> Those engineers, business managers, and even users are seldom the same
> as the ones who built the AsIs system, which was likely done years
> before.  The turnover in SWE is very high now compared to years ago,
> so expertise with the old system is often very hard to find.
>

Yes, you can be stuck with maintenance programmers and ignorant users. 
But that means you are genuinely flying blind with respect to the actual
data content and intent.  As Rich said (and I snipped), the actual data
is what people used the schema slots for, not necessarily what they were
described to contain.  When it is important to existing applications,
that stuff is documented.  But when the perception was that it will only
show up in some box on a form, or on a screen, which box it is in may
not be a concern, because the human recipient will always be able to
figure out, right?  And then 7 years later, someone modifies an app to
use the contents of box 7 (field "original-source") to make a decision,
and discovers that sometimes that info was in box 8 and sometimes in box
10, and other information is often in box 7.  That is the "legacy" in
databases.

[EJB]
>
>   in
>
> this day and age, there is no reason not to use both sets of tools,
>
> especially if the providers have tool sets that work together.
>

[Rich] 
>
> Since I am not familiar with the very latest commercial tools for the
> latest DB and SWE representations, you may be right.  But the tools
> are mostly available for development, not for analysis of code.
>

Software analysis tools -- ones that read code and schemas and produce
models and reports -- are common.  One of the applications is to convert
the extracted model to new code in Java or Ruby.   But just finding all
the uses of a given database field, or finding all the code that
modifies a particular table, is another common application.  These
analytical tools are now numerous and they are becoming quite
sophisticated, as businesses come to deal with exactly the problem Rich
identifies above -- the individuals with the original knowledge are gone.

> With even a few years between the AsIs and ToBe developments, the
> underlying software technology changes so fast that the old methods
> are discarded in most new ToBe systems for commercial purposes.
>

Actually, that is mostly a consequence of having a latest-and-greatest
mentality in your software development group, or in some influential
management.  Much of the time, the in-place software doesn't change
nearly as fast as Datamation would lead one to think.  Relational
Database technology has been in wide use for 25 years, and is still the
workhorse of business and industry.  There have been incremental feature
additions and great improvements in reliability and performance, but the
fundamental systems have not changed.  Java has been around for 18
years, and VBasic for 20, and webservices are 10 years old and still
uncommon.  If you started your webservice conversion in 2004, it might
now work, and that would put you ahead of the curve.

The problem is not the changes in the underlying software technology in
the 3-5 year development time for a major re-engineering effort.  The
problem is the changing business and the changing influencers.  The ToBe
for the target business environment is no longer competitive in the
target marketplace 3 years into the effort.  The original requirements
have changed.  Yes, there may be some rework needed for our webpages
when downloaded to cell phones, but the real problem is that we now have
to account for the hazardous trace materials in the product.

-Ed


>
> -Rich
>

>
> --
>
> Edward J. Barkmeyer                        Email: edbark@xxxxxxxx
>
> National Institute of Standards & Technology
>
> Manufacturing Systems Integration Division
>
> 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8263                Tel: +1 301-975-3528
>
> Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8263                FAX: +1 301-975-4694
>

>
> "The opinions expressed above do not reflect consensus of NIST,
>
>  and have not been reviewed by any Government authority."
>

>

>
> >
>
> > Jim Rhyne
>
> > Software Renovation Consulting
>
> > Los Gatos, California
>
> > http://www.enterprisesoftwarerenovation.com/
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> > [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rich Cooper
>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 2:04 PM
>
> > To: '[ontolog-forum] '
>
> > Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Language vs Logic
>
> >
>
> > Hi David,
>
> >
>
> > You are right-on with a realistic view of how this will progress, IMHO.
>
> >
>
> > But instead of reverse engineering legacy systems, consider projects to
>
> > reverse engineer legacy DATABASEs.  That is a whole lot more
> effective and
>
> > way less expensive.  Also, it happens to be one subject discussed in my
>
> > patent at http://www.englishlogickernel.com/Patent-7-209-923-B1.PDF,
> which I
>
> > mentioned earlier.
>
> >
>
> > By reverse engineering the database, you can still use whatever remains
>
> > useful of the old data model, the AsIs version.  It helps define what the
>
> > users were actually typing into those fields, just in case the new design
>
> > team wants to know how the users viewed each field, and some of the
> timing
>
> > and volume measurements can be helpful in estimating performance for
> the new
>
> > database, the ToBe version.
>
> >
>
> > Still more information can be reconstructed by analysis of the domains
>
> > actually represented in the data, where often surprising correlations are
>
> > found.  The old Information Flow Framework showed some insightful ways to
>
> > look at actual domain sample vectors, or at least this interpretER saw it
>
> > that way.
>
> >
>
> > -Rich
>
> >
>
> > Sincerely,
>
> > Rich Cooper
>
> > EnglishLogicKernel.com
>
> > Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com
>
> > 9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> > [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David Eddy
>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 1:41 PM
>
> > To: [ontolog-forum]
>
> > Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Language vs Logic
>
> >
>
> > Pat -
>
> >
>
> > On Sep 12, 2010, at 12:19 AM, Patrick Cassidy wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Context for the group... & reminding Pat, since he's probably
>
> > forgotten he said this...
>
> >
>
> > I am holding Pat to his statement at a SICoP meeting in approx 2005
>
> > where he said (approximately) that unless "this magic" (e.g.
>
> > ontologies, etc.) was somehow delivered & made accessible to folks in
>
> > the trenches who have zero knowledge, interest or education in
>
> > ontologies, ontologies would be nothing more than an interesting
>
> > academic exercise.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > CONTEXT... I am interested in the potential use of ontology for the
>
> > development/maintenance of software applications.
>
> >
>
> > I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that ontologies are simply
>
> > NOT relevant to this task.
>
> >
>
> > Please tell me I'm using the wrong lance to tilt at the wrong
>
> > windmill.  It won't hurt my feelings.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 
>
> >> Figuring out precisely what a term in an ontology is supposed to
>
> >> mean has
>
> >> three aspects: what the person developing the ontology intends it
>
> >> to mean;
>
> >> what the person reading the documentation interprets it to mean,
>
> >> and what
>
> >> the computer executing a program using the ontology interprets it
>
> >> to mean.
>
> >> Ideally, the they will be the same, but they may differ.
>
> >>   
>
> >
>
> > I would argue that since these are highly likely to be three
>
> > different people, with all the differing experiences, perspectives &
>
> > languages that humans tote around as life baggage, "they WILL differ"
>
> > not may.
>
> >
>
> > Granted my interest in systems development & maintenance may be too
>
> > narrow, I would also argue there are far more people wrestling with
>
> > systems development/maintenance language challenges than people
>
> > building ontologies.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 
>
> >> so good documentation is critical for
>
> >> ontologies intended to be used by more than a small tightly
>
> >> connected group.
>
> >>   
>
> >
>
> > My money is on the ONLY accurate documentation is the source code
>
> > (assuming, of course, you can find the correct version).  In
>
> > commercial applications, what paper documentation exists may have
>
> > been accurate at one point, but if the system has been in use the
>
> > code is the only accurate record.  [I'd like to think weapons systems
>
> > & nuclear power plants hold to a higher standard, but I have no
>
> > experience here.]
>
> >
>
> > This is in fact one of the great language challenges... as a system
>
> > transitions from paper specifications & documentation through
>
> > development into production and on to new teams of project managers &
>
> > developers (whose native language is likely NOT English), the intent
>
> > of the original language begins to mutate since there is no formal
>
> > process to ensure subsequent generations of maintainers (project
>
> > managers & coders) continue to use the same language & meanings.
>
> >
>
> > Whereas the compiler will force you to use correct VERBS, there is no
>
> > such constraint on the NOUNS... which is why organizations end up
>
> > with literally hundreds of names/nouns for the same thing.
>
> >
>
> > The CD/CDE (as abbreviation for CODE) example is from just such an
>
> > experience.  The original IMS DBA enforced CD as the single correct
>
> > abbreviation for several years in the initial system building phase.
>
> > She left & a new DBA took over.  A new segment was added & he
>
> > evidently liked to abbreviate CODE as CDE.  There was no automated
>
> > mechanism like a compiler to ensure or "encourage" him to use CD
>
> > rather than CDE.  The problem comes when one searches for "-CD
>
> > " (note the space suffix, since CD was used as a suffix in data
>
> > element names) you will NEVER find "-CDE ".  The devil is in the
>
> > details.
>
> >
>
> > In a system that adheres to "good names" one learns that the name of
>
> > something & what it is are in fact the same.  In the physical world
>
> > there a multiple forces-the dairy, the food inspectors, the grocery
>
> > store-to ensure a jug labeled "milk" actually contains milk.  We
>
> > haven't quite learned this lesson yet in systems.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 
>
> >> For me, good documentation means to state what one intends the
>
> >> ontology element to mean,
>
> >>   
>
> >
>
> > The way you present this I interpret as saying the ontology needs to
>
> > be done BEFORE the system.
>
> >
>
> > This is, of course, not acceptable since the vast majority of systems
>
> > are up & running & have been built/maintained without any
>
> > consideration at all to an ontology(s).
>
> >
>
> > I don't consider reverse engineering ontologies from existing systems
>
> > to be practical.  Primary argument... since the system owner does not
>
> > consider it cost effective to maintain accurate, current
>
> > documentation, they're certainly not going to spend money/time on
>
> > reverse engineering an ontology.  I also factor in that the "reality"
>
> > I look at is a small organization of 10,000 people, with 900
>
> > systems.  Last year ComputerWorld said IBM, with 400,000 people had
>
> > 4,500 "applications" (same as/different from systems? ...who knows).
>
> >
>
> > I am at pains to point out that each one of these
>
> > "applications" (whatever an application is) was built by different
>
> > people at different times for different objectives.  Then maintained
>
> > by different people... all these actors bringing different language
>
> > to the task.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 
>
> >> To some extent,
>
> >> learning to use a logic-based ontology is similar to learning to
>
> >> use a new
>
> >> object-oriented programming language, but programming languages
>
> >> usually come
>
> >> with a library of immediately useful applications as learning
>
> >> examples.  We
>
> >> haven't reached that point yet in the technology of ontology
>
> >> creation and
>
> >> dissemination.
>
> >>   
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Long, long ago I was beginning to work on my last programming
>
> > assignment.  I angered the architect (not a word in use then) by
>
> > telling him I did not want to LEARN CICS (at that point a HOT
>
> > language), rather I wanted to USE it.  Took about 10 years, but he
>
> > finally came around to understanding what I was saying.  His
>
> > templates (what we'd call frameworks today) were absolutely
>
> > brilliant.  From a standing start (e.g. knowing absolutely nothing
>
> > about CICS) I was able to take his templates & get 17 CICS programs
>
> > working in 2 weeks.
>
> >
>
> > Twenty years later I was looking at a cross platform development
>
> > tool... and was astonished to find a template/framework tool for
>
> > $350.  The earlier templates probably cost the client $500,000+.
>
> >
>
> > This is the standard I hold an ontology tool to... it better not be
>
> > any more complex than a spell checker/dictionary.  Clearly there's a
>
> > ways to go.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 
>
> >>  For the time being, I look first at the logical axioms associated
>
> >> with a
>
> >> term in an ontology, then at the documentation (usually contained
>
> >> in the
>
> >> "comments' section of an ontology element)
>
> >>   
>
> >
>
> > You keep using words that are difficult to grok...
>
> > "documentation"?    "comments"?  They are outside my experience.   :-)
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Here's what I consider to be documentation...
>
> >
>
> > a = b * c
>
> >
>
> > Totally accurate & not very useful.  More precisely... USELESS!
>
> > Unfortunately there's a lot of this.
>
> >
>
> > The same logical statement:
>
> >
>
> > wkly-pay = hrs-wkd * rate-pay
>
> >
>
> > Is now potentially comprehensible.
>
> >
>
> > If I can determine this is code is in a payroll module then I'm going
>
> > to assume that "pay" is likely a dollar & cents amount.  If I can
>
> > deduce this from just the name without needed to ask someone or fish
>
> > around in some questionable documentation, then I'm a happy camper.
>
> >
>
> > But what I would really like is the ability to hot-key/right click on
>
> > these variables & see what they mean.  I think this look-up facility
>
> > is possible in modern editors like Eclipse... but someone has to dig
>
> > up what the words mean in the context of their specific use... which
>
> > may or may not say anything about their meaning somewhere else in the
>
> > system.
>
> >
>
> > ___________________
>
> > David Eddy
>
> > deddy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> >
>
> > 781-455-0949
>

>


--
Edward J. Barkmeyer                        Email: edbark@xxxxxxxx
National Institute of Standards & Technology
Manufacturing Systems Integration Division
100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8263                Tel: +1 301-975-3528
Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8263                FAX: +1 301-975-4694

"The opinions expressed above do not reflect consensus of NIST,
and have not been reviewed by any Government authority."


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