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Re: [ontolog-forum] {Disarmed} Re: OWL and lack of identifiers

To: "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Waclaw Kusnierczyk <Waclaw.Marcin.Kusnierczyk@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 22:26:34 +0200
Message-id: <463B96FA.80207@xxxxxxxxxxx>

Ingvar Johansson wrote:
> Steve Newcomb schrieb:
>> Ingvar Johansson <ingvar.johansson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
>>> (2) Is it merely your subjective opinion that mathematics is grounded in 
>>> itself?
>> Nah.  But for the sake of the question you're developing here, let's
>> stipulate that it is indeed merely my subjective opinion.
>>> (3) If it is merely your subjective opinion, is then your opinion an 
>>> opinion *about a fact* or an opinion about something else?
>> I'm having trouble following your question.  You seem to be making a
>> distinction between opinion and fact (which is a useful thing to do),
>> but you haven't characterized the distinction.  
> O.K., now I will try. There is a class of entities such as perceptions, 
> opinions, assertions, statements, and propositions that can be 
> characterized by saying that (normally) they have *aboutness* 
> (alternatively, *directedness* or *intentionality*). There is another 
> class of entities that can be characterized by saying that they lack 
> this feature of *aboutness*. To this class belongs: (i) kinds of 
> concrete things such as atoms, molecules, and macrolevel material 
> things, as well as kinds of abstract entities such as sets and 
> mathematical numbers; (ii) properties such as mass, volume, shape, and 
> being a prime number; (iii) obtaining states of affairs constituted by 
> the kind of things and properties mentioned in (i) and (ii). This 
> distinction makes it possible to say that *opinions can be about 
> entities that are not themselves opinions*; but, of course, there can be 
> opinions about opinions, too.
> What is perplexing to many people is that if there is *aboutness*, then 
> this aboutness must be *about something that exists*. But this is not 
> always the case. If I assert "there is a beer in the fridge", I have 
> made an assertion that is true or false, and which (assuming we are in 
> the same apartment) you can go and check. If there is a beer, my 
> assertion is true, and it is about the beer and the fridge. If there is 
> no beer, my assertion is false, and it is about the fridge but not about 
> a beer. Nonetheless, my assertion has - no doubt! - *aboutness towards a 
> beer*. The aboutness of an assertion is logically prior to the latter's 
> truth-value.
> The ontological-semantic point made above must not be conflated with our 
> epistemological predicament. We can never be literally *absolutely sure* 
> whether or not there is a beer in the fridge; for instance, you may 
> hallucinate that there is a beer even though there is none. But this 
> epistemological point cannot possibly cancel the ontological-semantic 
> point, since the latter is a presupposition for asking questions such as 
> "can we know this?".    (01)

Ingvar,    (02)

we apparently play a game here the rules of which change with the player.    (03)

John proposed a defintion of the distinction between objective and 
subjective statements based on the verifiability (?) of their truth by 
peresons (subjects?) other than the their author.    (04)

You seem to advocate a definition based on the aboutness of the 
statement, its ontological-semantic point.    (05)

On the first definition, it seems to me that my 'the universe will cease 
to exist in two thousand years' time' is perfectly subjective, as no one 
can verify it (at least, not now).  it is clearly objective on the view 
you seem to propose, since it is about the universe.    (06)

On the other hand, my 'i feel sick' is subjective on John's view in that 
no one can verify how i *feel* (yet?), while objective on your take, in 
that it is about me and my feelings -- and both of us are perfect 
members of *the objective* reality.    (07)

vQ    (08)

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