OntologyBasedStandards mini-series session-4 - Thu 2013-10-10    (3YFL)

Session Co-chair: Mr. PeterYim (Ontolog; CIM3) & Dr. RamSriram* (NIST) ... intro slides    (3YFM)

Topic: The Case for a "Quantities and Units of Measure" Ontology Standard    (3YFN)

Program / Panelists / Briefings:    (3YFO)

  ... Remarks: *availability of these individuals may be affected by the US government shutdown (which started on 2013.10.01) and other factors    (3YG2)

Archives:    (3YG3)

Conference Call Details:    (3YGC)

Attendees:    (3YH9)

Abstract    (3YHX)

The Case for a "Quantities and Units of Measure" Ontology Standard ... [ intro slides ]    (3YHY)

This is a continuation of the OntologyBasedStandards mini-series that got started in late 2012. Since we have already had two content sessions and a planning session, this session is labeled as "session-4". That (3rd) brainstorm/planning session resulted in a program of 8 topics which we will be covering partly during the rest of 2013, and partly in 2014.    (3YHZ)

Among one of the initiatives that spun off from OntologySummit2009: "Toward Ontology-based Standards" was the effort to work towards a "Quantities and Units of Measure" Ontology Standard ("QUOMOS"). A rather thorough survey of the landscape was done by the Ontolog Forum members, who then progressed the work to a standards development effort under the auspices of the OASIS QUOMOS TC.    (3YI0)

In parallel, various similar efforts were also active - notably the NASA QUDT (Quantities, Units, Dimensions, and Data Types) Handbook and Ontologies that came out earlier this year. For today's session we have invited RalphHodgson, who led the development of this NASA/QUDT work, to give a brief introduction to this QUDT work.    (3YI1)

On our panel today, we have invited various User-domain Standards Developers (users of QUOMOS), as well as key members of the QUOMOS team (developers of QUOMOS) to share with us their perspectives. After the QUDT presentation, our other panelists will give short briefings to help kick-start the conversation. An open discussion will ensue, which will revolving around:    (3YI2)

I. given what (standards works) are already available [1], do we still see the need for a cross-domain, International Quantity and Units of Measure Ontology Standard? (like what the OASIS QUOMOS TC has chartered [3]), and    (3YI3)

II. if so, what could/should that QUOMOS ontology standard deliver, to best meet user needs and expectations?    (3YI4)

What we really hope to gain out of today's session, is a dialog between the users and developers of the QUOMOS standard ontology, so that the work products from this effort will not be something that sits on the shelf, but something that meet the needs and expectations of its users.    (3YI5)

Please also refer to details on the OntologyBasedStandards mini-series homepage.    (3YI6)

Agenda:    (3YI7)

The Case for a "Quantities and Units of Measure" Ontology Standard    (3YI8)

Proceedings:    (3YIH)

Please refer to the above    (3YII)

IM Chat Transcript captured during the session    (3YIJ)

 see raw transcript here.    (3YIK)
 (for better clarity, the version below is a re-organized and lightly edited chat-transcript.)
 Participants are welcome to make light edits to their own contributions as they see fit.    (3YIL)
 -- begin in-session chat-transcript --    (3YIM)
	Chat transcript from room: ontolog_20131010
	2013-10-10 GMT-08:00 [PDT]
	------    (3Z1Q)
	[9:25] PeterYim: Welcome to the    (3Z1R)
	 = OntologyBasedStandards mini-series session-4 - Thu 2013-10-10 =    (3Z1S)
	Session Co-chair: Mr. PeterYim (Ontolog; CIM3) & Dr. RamSriram* (NIST)    (3Z1T)
	Topic: The Case for a "Quantities and Units of Measure" Ontology Standard    (3Z1U)
	Program / Panelists / Briefings:    (3Z1V)
	* Mr. RalphHodgson (TopQuadrant) - "The NASA QUDT Ontology & Handbook" with an Introduction by Dr. PaulKeller* (NASA)    (3Z1W)
	* Some User-domain Standards Developers' Perspectives - 
	** Mr. SeanBarker (BAE Systems) - from Engineering & Systems Design
	** Dr. SteveRay (CMU) & TobyConsidine (UNC) - from Smart Grid standardization
	** Mr. MikeBennett (EDM Council) - from Financial Industry Business Ontology (FIBO) work (in absentia)    (3Z1X)
	* QUOMOS Developer Discussant -
	** Mr. EdBarkmeyer* (NIST) 
	** Dr. MatthewWest (Information Junction) - from ISO 15926-2 work (Industrial Automation and Systems Integration) (in absentia)  (3YFS)
	** Dr. PatHayes (IHMC) - Making the Case for a "Quantities and Units of Measure" Ontology Standard    (3Z1Y)
	* Open Discussion - ALL
	** I. given what (standards works) are already available [1], do we still see the need for a cross-domain, International Quantity and Units    (3Z1Z)
	of Measure Ontology Standard (like what the OASIS QUOMOS TC has chartered [3]), and
	** II. if so, what could/should that QUOMOS ontology standard deliver, to best meet user needs and expectations?    (3Z20)
	  ... Remarks: *availability of these individuals may be affected by the US government shutdown (which started on 2013.10.01) and other factors    (3Z21)
	Logistics:    (3Z22)
	* Refer to details on session page at: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2013_10_10    (3Z23)
	* (if you haven't already done so) please click on "settings" (top center) and morph from "anonymous" to your RealName (in WikiWord format)    (3Z24)
	* Mute control: *7 to un-mute ... *6 to mute    (3Z25)
	* Can't find Skype Dial pad?
	** for Windows Skype users: Can't find Skype Dial pad? ... it's under the "Call" dropdown menu as "Show Dial pad"
	** for Linux Skype users: please stay with (or downgrade to) Skype version 2.x for now (as a Dial pad seems to be missing on Linux-based Skype v4.x for skype-calls.)    (3Z26)
	Attendees: PeterYim (co-chair), AlanRector, AlexShkotin, AmandaVizedom, BobbinTeegarden, 
	BruceSimons, EdBernot, ElisaKendall, ElizabethFlorescu, EmilioSanfilippo, GaryBergCross, 
	HaroldBoley, JamesDavenport, JoelBender, JohnMcClure, MasoumehNourollahi, MichaelGruninger, 
	OnnoPaap, PatHayes, RalphHodgson, RichardMartin, SeanBarker, SimonCox, SimonSpero, SteveRay, 
	TaraAthan, TobyConsidine.    (3Z27)
	 == Proceedings ==    (3Z28)
	[9:11] anonymous morphed into EmilioSanfilippo    (3Z29)
	[9:23] anonymous morphed into EdBernot    (3Z2A)
	[9:25] anonymous morphed into ElizabethFlorescu    (3Z2B)
	[9:28] anonymous morphed into TobyConsidine    (3Z2C)
	[9:28] anonymous morphed into AmandaVizedom    (3Z2D)
	[9:29] SteveRay: Looks like the Skype "joinconference" is offline. I'll use the phone instead.    (3Z2E)
	[9:30] SimonSpero: Skype-out is not just local. Darn.    (3Z2F)
	[9:31] AmandaVizedom: Peter, is "joinconference" out-of-play for this call, or is it being worked on 
	and possibly coming online?    (3Z2G)
	[9:34] SimonCox: I see "joinconference" fine    (3Z2H)
	[9:34] JamesDavenport: "joinconference" had problems but seems fine now    (3Z2I)
	[9:33] SimonSpero: One person in Chapel Hill, one in Raleigh - but no-one in Durham to line-pool 
	with. Downside of cell-phone only life    (3Z2J)
	[9:34] PeterYim: there have been reports on problems with skype connections to "joinconference" ... 
	if that problem persists for you, please dial (using your phone of skype-out) into the 
	phone number: +1 (206) 402-0100 ... when prompted enter Conference ID: 141184#    (3Z2K)
	[9:34] PeterYim: (for phone dial-in) ... some local numbers may be available (in the US, Australia, 
	Canada & UK) - see: http://instantteleseminar.com/Local/    (3Z2L)
	[9:32] SteveRay: Google voice is working fine...    (3Z2M)
	[9:38] ElizabethFlorescu: "joinconfenece" still not working for me    (3Z2N)
	[9:38] SimonSpero: The local number for raleigh worked    (3Z2O)
	[9:34] RalphHodgson: Testing whether I am anonymous    (3Z2P)
	[9:34] RalphHodgson: No I am not    (3Z2Q)
	[9:30] anonymous morphed into BobbinTeegarden    (3Z2R)
	[9:32] anonymous morphed into PatHayes    (3Z2S)
	[9:32] anonymous1 morphed into SeanBarker    (3Z2T)
	[9:33] anonymous morphed into SimonCox    (3Z2U)
	[9:33] anonymous morphed into JamesDavenport    (3Z2V)
	[9:36] SeanBarker: How do I unmute?    (3Z2W)
	[9:37] SimonSpero: *7 to unmute (*6 to mute)    (3Z2X)
	[9:36] anonymous morphed into JohnMcClure    (3Z2Y)
	[9:39] anonymous morphed into BruceSimons    (3Z2Z)
	[9:39] JohnMcClure: hi all - mcclure here    (3Z30)
	[9:45] anonymous morphed into OnnoPaap    (3Z31)
	[9:48] anonymous morphed into ElisaKendall    (3Z32)
	[9:46] JamesDavenport: Where are these slides?    (3Z33)
	[9:49] SteveRay: @JamesDavenport: The slides are found by the links on the conference wiki page, 
	immediately after each speaker entry on the agenda.    (3Z34)
	[9:50] SteveRay: @James: Actually, more easily found near the top of the page, 
	where you see "0-Chair" "1-Hodgson" etc. Those are the same links.    (3Z35)
	[9:50] SimonCox: US Govt not so civilized just now    (3Z36)
	[9:52] MichaelGruninger: There is a great three-part BBC miniseries hosted by the mathematician 
	Marcus du Sautoy called "Precision: The Measure of All Things" outlining aspects of the history of 
	measurement.    (3Z37)
	[9:57] AmandaVizedom: Thanks for that reference, Michael. Put it on my "to watch" list.    (3Z38)
	[9:57] PeterYim: == RalphHodgson presenting ...    (3Z39)
	[9:58] JohnMcClure: these seem to be the slides. .......... 
	http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/work/OntologyBasedStandards/2013-10-10_Case-for-QUOMOS/NASA-QUDT-Handbook-v10--RalphHodgson_20131010.pdf    (3Z3A)
	[9:58] List of members: AlanRector, AlexShkotin, AmandaVizedom, BobbinTeegarden, BruceSimons, 
	JohnMcClure, EdBernot, ElisaKendall, ElizabethFlorescu, EmilioSanfilippo, GaryBergCross, 
	JamesDavenport, JoelBender, MichaelGruninger, OnnoPaap, PatHayes, PeterYim, RichardMartin, 
	SeanBarker, SimonCox, SimonSpero, SteveRay, TaraAthan, TobyConsidine, vnc2    (3Z3B)
	[10:02] PatHayes: question for Ralph: if you ask for force times distance, do you get Work or Torque?    (3Z3C)
	[10:04] SteveRay: @Pat: I presume you get all possible answers with the right dimensionality.    (3Z3D)
	[10:06] SimonSpero: [ref. Ralph's remark that the QUDT work will be available online soon, after 
	another review] Ralph: Just put it out in draft form for testing.    (3Z3E)
	[10:07] SimonSpero: PatHayes: The answer can be probabilistically inferred based on the name of the variable    (3Z3F)
	[10:09] SimonSpero: @Pat: source code is text. Scientists are not very imaginative when it comes to 
	naming variables - only when finding new ways to write fortran in whatever language they're given    (3Z3G)
	[10:16] SimonCox: What about UCUM?    (3Z3H)
	[10:19] SimonSpero: @Ralph: skos:related denotes all relationships between two "things that 
	something can be about" apart from synonymy and hierarchy.    (3Z3I)
	[10:18] JohnMcClure: question for Ralph: what property(s) are appropriate for associating an 
	instance of a quantity with a resource for which it is an attribute??    (3Z3J)
	[10:19] SimonCox: @JohnMcClure - wouldn't that be specific to the resource type?    (3Z3K)
	[10:20] SimonCox: i.e. part of your application    (3Z3L)
	[10:21] JohnMcClure: really, specific to a type? wouldn't they be of a common subtype ?    (3Z3M)
	[10:22] JohnMcClure: e.g. MeasurableThing    (3Z3N)
	[10:22] SimonCox: owl:ObjectProperty?    (3Z3O)
	[10:23] SimonCox: Ah - you want to indicate that it is associated with a measurement procedure    (3Z3P)
	[10:23] SimonCox: In ISO 19156 I coined <<estimatedProperty>> stereotype for UML    (3Z3Q)
	[10:23] JohnMcClure: well, perhaps QuantifiedThing - but that's more the base class of each of the types    (3Z3R)
	[10:26] SimonCox: # good for classes and properties, / for individuals    (3Z3S)
	[10:26] JohnMcClure: sorry, misspoke a bit - I am talking about a common superproperty that relates 
	the quantity resource to its attributed resource    (3Z3T)
	[10:27] SimonCox: @JohnMcClure Understood    (3Z3U)
	[10:28] JohnMcClure: so the question is: have you considered naming a super-property (or set of 
	super-properties) most appropriate to relate the measurement resource to its attributed resource    (3Z3V)
	[10:29] SimonCox: I think the concern is to explain in what way that is different to owl:ObjectProperty    (3Z3W)
	[10:23] PeterYim: @Ralph: what flavor of OWL is used for the QUDT ontology?    (3Z3X)
	[10:41] RalphHodgson: @Peter - What used to be called OWL -Lite but a little more than that    (3Z3Y)
	[10:41] RalphHodgson: @Peter - class axioms but no class expressions    (3Z3Z)
	[10:24] TaraAthan: expansion of the scale model beyond these "classical" four would be an important topic for QUOMOS    (3Z40)
	[10:30] TaraAthan: I would like to know how to extra from QUDT just the subset of axioms that are 
	needed for a particular application.    (3Z41)
	[10:38] RalphHodgson: @Tara - extra -> extract?    (3Z42)
	[10:40] MichaelGruninger: @Ralph: Are all ontologies that correspond to the content on slide 29 
	available in the QUDT catalog at http://www.linkedmodel.org/catalog/qudt/1.1/index.html ?    (3Z43)
	[10:50] RalphHodgson: @MichaelGruninger - Not at the 1.1 catalog - will be on the 2.0 catalog - 
	before that in GitHub - once NASA HQ review is closed    (3Z44)
	[10:35] JamesDavenport: I may not be able to stay for the discussion, but in OpenMath/MathML, we 
	regard 'pico' etc as prefixes, so we can build P*U units from P prefixes and U base units. Units are 
	again defined in terms of the base units.    (3Z45)
	[10:37] SimonCox: @JamesDavenport - as does UCUM ...    (3Z46)
	[10:37] RalphHodgson: @James this is how QUDT is doing it too    (3Z47)
	[10:50] JamesDavenport: @RalphHodgson Then I must have misheard, I thought he said that kilonewtons 
	and piconewtons were units    (3Z48)
	[10:41] SimonCox: @Ralph Where are upgraded QUDT ontologies, with extra properties on QuantityKind etc?    (3Z49)
	[10:42] RalphHodgson: @Simon - QUDT release 2 has not been released yet - it will be once the NASA 
	HQ review is done    (3Z4A)
	[10:42] RalphHodgson: @Simon - expect schemas in next 4 weeks    (3Z4B)
	[10:43] RalphHodgson: @Simon - on GitHub    (3Z4C)
	[10:43] SimonCox: @Ralph - no community review :-(    (3Z4D)
	[10:44] RalphHodgson: @Simon - community review will follow NASA internal review for some things. 
	Other community reviews will happen - e.g. Life Sciences    (3Z4E)
	[10:50] SimonSpero: Ralph - why not put them up on GitHub early so you can get pull requests    (3Z4F)
	[11:01] RalphHodgson: @simon - we can do some release before NASA HQ review is done - this is coming 
	down to what cycles we have to get this done "now" - for me "now" is next 2 months    (3Z4G)
	[11:03] SimonCox: @Ralph - thanks - thats good,    (3Z4H)
	[10:45] RalphHodgson: @Simon - vaem and provo might provide the right semantics for mentioning other things out there    (3Z4I)
	[10:50] SimonSpero: @Ralph : that's how the ISO C++ standards are being developed now    (3Z4J)
	[10:29] PeterYim: == SeanBarker briefing ...    (3Z4K)
	[10:29] JohnMcClure: URL please for Sean    (3Z4L)
	[10:30] JohnMcClure: 
	http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/work/OntologyBasedStandards/2013-10-10_Case-for-QUOMOS/units-n-measures-in-engineering--SeanBarker_20131010.pdf    (3Z4M)
	[10:31] PeterYim: @SeanBarker - oops! ref the format conversion error on slide#2; I will update the 
	slide deck after the session    (3Z4N)
	[11:55] PeterYim: re [10:31] corrected SeanBarker slides now uploaded and linked to the page    (3Z4O)
	[10:36] PeterYim: == SteveRay briefing ...    (3Z4P)
	[10:42] PeterYim: == TobyConsidine making his observations ...    (3Z4Q)
	[10:44] anonymous1 morphed into OnnoPaap    (3Z4R)
	[10:48] PeterYim: == PatHayes presenting ... please bring up his slides - under: 
	http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2013_10_10#nid3YG6    (3Z4S)
	[10:51] TaraAthan: Indeed the definition of certain units changes (discretely) in time based on, 
	say, versions of the VIM.    (3Z4T)
	[10:57] TaraAthan: [ref. PatHayes' slide #5] Stevens' scale is not enough.    (3Z4U)
	[10:59] PatHayes: Tara, by all means point me to other ideas.    (3Z4V)
	[10:57] BobbinTeegarden: If CL, what tools implement it that are available for lowly system 
	architect trying to use these ontologies right now?    (3Z4W)
	[10:59] SimonSpero: Bobbin: There's Hets to some extent [ PeterYim: ref. 
	http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2010_09_10#nid2HO6 ]    (3Z4X)
	[10:59] PatHayes: Bobbin, CL has parsers and reasoners (consistency checkers) but not al the 
	connections to Web machinery (not yet).    (3Z4Y)
	[11:00] SimonSpero: Bobbin: Also Fabian's PrIKL (which maybe he will have some time to work on this 
	week :-)    (3Z4Z)
	[11:00] PatHayes: Thats the reasoner I was thinking of :-)    (3Z50)
	[10:59] BobbinTeegarden: URL to Ontology Based Standards SIG? ... [ PeterYim: see - 
	http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologyBasedStandards ]    (3Z51)
	[10:56] ElisaKendall: Peter and all, apologies for dropping off - I've really enjoyed some of the 
	discussion and had hoped to jump in on FIBO (and on the Date Time vocabulary work ongoing at OMG, 
	which is now in UML, CL, OCL, and OWL), but have a call I couldn't get out of. Will follow the 
	discussion, though. ... [ PeterYim: Thank you, Elisa ]    (3Z52)
	[10:58] JamesDavenport: @all, sorry, need to go now    (3Z53)
	[10:59] PeterYim: @JamesDavenport - Thanks for joining us, James    (3Z54)
	[11:13] RalphHodgson: @patHayes - thanks - I would like to review some aspects of the work with you    (3Z55)
	[11:00] == MichaelGruninger providing an overview on the role IAOA is playing to foster 
	OntologyBasedStandards    (3Z56)
	[11:00] JohnMcClure: 'ontology-BASED standards' seems quite different from 'standard ontology', 
	right? An ontology-based std would be an ontology for specification of a standard, right?    (3Z57)
	[11:01] SimonSpero: JohnMclure: That's what some of the later sessions are aiming at    (3Z58)
	[11:01] PatHayes: JohnMcClure, that would make sense but its not the way the term is used, I think.    (3Z59)
	[11:04] MichaelGruninger: @JohnMcClure: "Ontology-based Standards" encompasses a range of efforts -- 
	ontologies that are a part of a standard, ontologies that are being standardized, and ontologies 
	that are used to augment an existing standard to provide unambiguous definitions of terms    (3Z5A)
	[11:04] AmandaVizedom: JohnMcClure: I think that there are use cases in play for both senses you 
	mention: (a) standards that specify that all data of some type must be captured / exposed in terms 
	of some ontology, and (b) standards that are themselves expressed in (& made precise, machine 
	readable, etc., by) some ontology. But certainly, the two uses are different.    (3Z5B)
	[--:--] PeterYim: @JohnMcClure - we scoped this out when the initiative kicked off in 2012 - see: 
	http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2012_10_25 ... in particular, 
	ref. slide #3 if the "[6-IAOA-Gruninger]" presentation there    (3Z5C)
	[11:04] RalphHodgson: @MichaelGrunninger - would appreciate a pointer to ontology registry web page 
	- rhodgson[at]nasa.gov - thanks    (3Z5D)
	[11:05] PeterYim: @RalphHodgson: - access to various instances of the open ontology repository - goto http://oor.net    (3Z5E)
	[11:02] == Open discussion ...    (3Z5F)
	[11:02] PatHayes: who is speaking?    (3Z5G)
	[11:03] PeterYim: @Pat - TaraAthan is speaking now    (3Z5H)
	[11:02] PatHayes: tnx    (3Z5I)
	[11:04] PatHayes: @TaraAthan - (further to above [10:57]) Are the SSStevens cases wrong, or just incomplete?    (3Z5J)
	[11:05] PatHayes: Ah, OK. Yes, the scale is not the unit.    (3Z5K)
	[11:05] RalphHodgson: @Tara - could you send me a pointer to what you just mentioned? Thanks - rhodgson[at]nasa.gov    (3Z5L)
	[11:06] TaraAthan: @Ralph - yes, I'll have to dig these up in my reference manager.    (3Z5M)
	[11:05] GaryBergCross: @Pat On your last slide you discuss 7 concepts. QUOMOS seems to include 
	Dimension too. Is that important to add to your list?    (3Z5N)
	[11:06] PatHayes: @Gary Yes., I had dimension there but removed it because it has several meanings 
	and I wanted to get them straightened out first .    (3Z5O)
	[11:07] TaraAthan: Plug for next week - the idea of "measurement" is related to the concept of "observation", 
	which addressed by a couple of our speakers (SimonCox and Cory Henson) one week from now    (3Z5P)
	[11:10] GaryBergCross: @pat You have Measurement. Act of taking a measure value, or the result of 
	such an action. This involves the idea of Observation and I would expect this to be explored by 
	@SimonCox in next weeks session of spatial standards and his talk on Observations and Measures.    (3Z5Q)
	[11:09] PatHayes: [joking on the typo (now corrected) Tara had to correct in her last post] what we 
	need is a generic English vowel.    (3Z5R)
	[11:09] SimonSpero: http://sw.opencyc.org/2012/05/10/concept/en/FundamentalUnitType    (3Z5S)
	[11:10] SimonSpero: http://sw.opencyc.org/2012/05/10/concept/en/UnitOfMeasure    (3Z5T)
	[11:09] BruceSimons: @Ralph And the 'car speed' concept is and instance of the 'velocity' QuanityKind    (3Z5U)
	[11:10] RalphHodgson: @Bruce - speed is a property of the car - a property is a quantity that has a 
	quantityKind - in this case velocity    (3Z5V)
	[11:10] SteveRay: I need to leave, I'm afraid. Will review the rest of the session from the archives.    (3Z5W)
	[11:11] SeanBarker: On uncertainty: I did not have time to mention the whole area of tolerances on 
	engineering dimensions, covering not only variations in lenghts, but other measures such as straightness or circularity.    (3Z5X)
	[11:11] RalphHodgson: @Sean +1    (3Z5Y)
	[11:12] SimonSpero: Sean: The cyc UoM functions were/are variadic    (3Z5Z)
	[11:12] PatHayes: tnx    (3Z60)
	[11:12] SimonSpero: Sean: a single value is a point    (3Z61)
	[11:13] SimonSpero: Sean: two values is a closed real interval    (3Z62)
	[11:13] SimonSpero: Sean: (or at least a closed interval)    (3Z63)
	[11:13] PatHayes: Simon, a point in 3space is 3 values, surely.    (3Z64)
	[11:14] SimonSpero: ScalarPoint, sorry    (3Z65)
	[11:14] SimonCox: @Pat or is it a single value that can only be expressed with 3 numbers    (3Z66)
	[11:15] SimonCox: change of coordinate reference system does not change position, only the way it is expressed    (3Z67)
	[11:15] SimonSpero: Also, the third dimension is just a theoretical hypothesis - 
	see e.g. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/201/201-h/201-h.htm    (3Z68)
	[11:16] PatHayes: I think a point in actual space is a physical system (hate that word) which has 
	measurable properties, such as where it is. The coordinates are the measurements on some scale. 
	Does that make sense?    (3Z69)
	[11:16] HaroldBoley: As mentioned by others, I think metrologists should be involved early on in a 
	"Quantities and Units of Measure" Ontology Standard. For practical applications, Canadian 
	metrologists could be reached via NRC's "Measurement science and standards": 
	https://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/eng/rd/mss/index.html    (3Z6A)
	[11:17] PatHayes: Harold, thanks. I have to say, metrologists in my experience do have rather 
	intense intellectual turf battles.    (3Z6B)
	[11:14] TaraAthan: https://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=quomos    (3Z6C)
	[11:16] TaraAthan: another multidimensional quantity is color (RGB, HSV)    (3Z6D)
	[11:17] SimonCox: @Tara - ooh - that is a complex area. Depends on human optical-perceptual system.    (3Z6E)
	[11:17] TaraAthan: yeah, fun    (3Z6F)
	[11:17] AlexShkotin: We should collect units of measure by science (from physics to biology). 
	Definitions come from particular science and its formalization.    (3Z6G)
	[11:18] PatHayes: @AlexShkotin, also commerce and engineering.    (3Z6H)
	[11:18] TaraAthan: units for currency - highly dependent on time    (3Z6I)
	[11:19] PatHayes: Hopefully we can make it simply a matter of temporal indexing, so the unit might 
	be dollars-at-<dateTime> and the like.    (3Z6J)
	[11:19] RalphHodgson: @AlexShkotin - this is how QUDT is organized - domains of science and 
	engineering - concept of discipline is distinct from domain    (3Z6K)
	[11:20] PatHayes: Another is hardness, which has many scales depending on measurement method, with 
	complex nonlinear contextual mappings between them.    (3Z6L)
	[11:21] PatHayes: I think an ontology at that point just has to classify them and hand conversions 
	over to a specialist.    (3Z6M)
	[11:21] GaryBergCross: people may be interested in the Ontology of Units of Measure and Related 
	Concepts paper on OM (Observation and Measurement) 
	http://www.semantic-web-journal.net/sites/default/files/swj177_7.pdf    (3Z6N)
	[11:20] TaraAthan: there is bizarre stuff like atomic weights as well - it's dependent on space    (3Z6O)
	[11:22] AlexShkotin: @Tara, how?    (3Z6P)
	[11:22] TaraAthan: the isotopic ratio of elements is variable in space - it matters for e.g. geology    (3Z6Q)
	[11:23] TaraAthan: the atomic weights published in the periodic table are "typical" values    (3Z6R)
	[11:23] PatHayes: @Tara, do you mean the actual ratio varies with eg sample, or that the idea of the 
	ratio itself is context-dependent?    (3Z6S)
	[11:26] TaraAthan: @Pat - there is a standardized value of atomic weight, and there are corrections 
	that may be made in the cases the accuracy matters - not sure if these corrections have been standardized.    (3Z6T)
	[11:24] SimonCox: @Pat - it has measurable properties OK (position), and vector decomposition as 
	well. But position is conceptually a single value?    (3Z6U)
	[11:25] PatHayes: @Simon, good question, depends on your physics I think. Certainly it is in e.g. geography.    (3Z6V)
	[11:25] SimonCox: @Pat - geography is one of the places I play!    (3Z6W)
	[11:25] AlexShkotin: @Ralph, I just want to say we formalize some science not just units of it:-)    (3Z6X)
	[11:25] RalphHodgson: @Alex +1    (3Z6Y)
	[11:26] PatHayes: @SimonCox Me too, especially maps.    (3Z6Z)
	[11:26] AlexShkotin: :-)    (3Z70)
	[11:25] PeterYim: Join us next week (Thu 2013-10-17) for the OntologyBasedStandards miniseries 
	session-5: "Ontology-based Standards in Geospatial Domains" - co-chairs: GaryBergCross & TaraAthan - 
	ref. developing session details at: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2013_10_17    (3Z71)
	[11:26] BruceSimons: Thanks all    (3Z72)
	[11:27] PatHayes: @Tara. Hmmm. I was hoping that the ontology could assume properties were real, 
	then deal with accuracy of measurement later.    (3Z73)
	[11:27] PatHayes: So there is AN atomic weight, but we might not know it exactly. But for isotope 
	mixtures, maybe not. :-((    (3Z74)
	[11:28] AlexShkotin: @Tara atomic weight is calculated by q-mechanics;-)    (3Z75)
	[11:28] TaraAthan: @Pat - AN atomic weight based on the actual distribution of isotopes in the 
	entire universe? That is certainly time-dependent.    (3Z76)
	[11:29] PatHayes: Doesn't each isotope have its own atomic weight, so we are here talking about mixtures?    (3Z77)
	[11:29] AlexShkotin: @Pat, exactly:-)    (3Z78)
	[11:30] PatHayes: OK, then that I think we can handle.    (3Z79)
	[11:30] TaraAthan: @Alex - atomic weight is the old-fashioned term for - I am talking about 
	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_atomic_mass    (3Z7A)
	[11:31] BobbinTeegarden: I think maybe Tara is saying that (a lot of) things we express are in the 
	end only approximate, and we aren't dealing with that in ontologies (right now)...? Tara?    (3Z7B)
	[11:32] TaraAthan: Each isotope has its own atomic mass, an element as a whole has an atomic weight. 
	I am talking about standards. There is a standard relative atomic mass for each element.    (3Z7C)
	[11:32] BobbinTeegarden: An atomic weight is a 'name' for an approximation?    (3Z7D)
	[11:33] AlexShkotin: @Tara, thanks, this is why we need formal definitions:-)    (3Z7E)
	[11:34] PatHayes: OK, I will take that wikipedia article as a challenge. The ontology should provide 
	enough concpets and distinctions that one can make sense of the discussion in that article.    (3Z7F)
	[11:34] PatHayes: And now I have to leave to do some completely non-ontological stuff.    (3Z7G)
	[11:35] TaraAthan: @Pat - yes, that is the point I was trying to get across - is something like 
	atomic weight a quantity kind different from atomic mass?    (3Z7H)
	[11:36] PatHayes: @TaraAthan, yes.    (3Z7I)
	[11:36] AlexShkotin: And "context" of particular science:-) Well, discipline;-)    (3Z7J)
	[11:37] PatHayes: @Tara - and the hardnesses all measure different properties, though related. 
	Contrast temperature scales, for example.    (3Z7K)
	[11:37] PatHayes: Pater, is this IRC trace recorded for later reference?    (3Z7L)
	[11:37] SimonCox: @Ralph - Discipline vs. domain?    (3Z7M)
	[11:38] AlexShkotin: Good talk. Sorry, I need to leave. C u.    (3Z7N)
	[11:38] SimonCox: @Tara - Hardness (using traditional Moh's scale) is definitely *not* a 'quantity' 
	as the units are not convertible.    (3Z7O)
	[11:39] PatHayes: @Peter, OK I see it is.    (3Z7P)
	[11:40] PeterYim: @Pat - yes ... as always - full proceedings, including slides, chat-transcript, 
	audio recording, etc. will be openly available online (say, in a day or two) - check back at the 
	(same) session page - http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2013_10_10 ...and look 
	under the "Archives" section    (3Z7Q)
	[11:40] PatHayes: @Simon, but that is still a measurement scale which measures something. That's 
	what I needed the scale type classification for, to distinguish the mere ordering from a 
	units/quantities scale.    (3Z7R)
	[11:41] SimonCox: Nominal vs Ordinal, ratio vs interval    (3Z7S)
	[11:42] SimonCox: also circular, hierarchical,    (3Z7T)
	[11:40] TaraAthan: I hope we can pick up these discussions in a revived QUOMOS (I am a TC member).    (3Z7U)
	[11:41] PatHayes: OK, really gotta go now. Bye.    (3Z7V)
	[11:41] TaraAthan: same here- bye    (3Z7W)
	[11:41] PeterYim: @TaraAthan - look forward to talking to you in the OASIS QUOMOS TC    (3Z7X)
	[11:33] SimonCox: A clarification - SimonCox does not represent UCUM, just has used it a lot!    (3Z7Y)
	[11:33] PeterYim: Thanks, Simon ... duly noted!    (3Z7Z)
	[11:33] SimonCox: UCUM does not formalize quantity-kinds, only units. Focusses on unit conversions. 
	Leaves the other stuff for us (?)    (3Z80)
	[11:34] SimonCox: But UCUM grammar for building unit symbols from primitives is worth inspection    (3Z81)
	[11:35] SimonCox: (UCUM comments 'for the record' as I don't think voice was recorded) ... [ 
	PeterYim: @SimonCox - voice *is* recorded and will be archived and made available openly. ]    (3Z82)
	[11:36] PeterYim: @Simon & All - We have had conversations about UCUM with StanHuff and 
	GuntherSchadow earlier - see under: 
	http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?UoM_Ontology_Standard#nid2116    (3Z83)
	[11:42] SimonCox: Bye    (3Z84)
	[11:41] ElizabethFlorescu: bye    (3Z85)
	[11:41] PeterYim: thanks for joining us from Romania, Elizabeth    (3Z86)
	[11:42] ElizabethFlorescu: my pleasure, as always ;-)    (3Z87)
	[11:42] PeterYim: bye everyone! Thank you all for the participation and contribution!    (3Z88)
	[11:42] PeterYim: closing the chat-room now    (3Z89)
	[11:26] PeterYim: -- session ended: 11:26am PDT --    (3Z8A)
 -- end of in-session chat-transcript --    (3YIN)

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