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Jack, Dear Nicola, Thanks for the response. I am aware of several kinds of computational ontologies. I was interested in a specific example of what you had in mind when declaring that an ontology is not equivalent to an algorithm. Ontologies that I have seen express semantic equivalences and other relationships. Some are even loaded with first order predicates that look very much like spaghetti code (which I thought was banned in the 1980's). However, I am not interested in arguing the point. The simple fact is that systems and systems engineering need semantic transformers. If ontologies don't do semantic transforms (e.g. AP233) then there may be some residual utility in ontologies in Big Systems but not the degree I had hoped. Jack Ring ps. 'algorithm' predates computer science by several centuries. On Feb 1, 2012, at 2:57 PM, Nicola Guarino wrote:
sorry for this late answer to your request. There are various definitions of (computational) ontologies adopted by the community, it shouldn't be difficult for you to find them, as well as actual examples of ontologies. Speaking for myself, I spent a good fraction of my research career trying to clarify, in a rigorous way, what a computational ontology is (see for instance the paper by Daniel Oberle and myself on the Handbook of Ontologies, 2nd edition). Basically, I agree with the most popular definition "An ontology is a specification of a conceptualisation", which requires however a careful clarification of what a conceptualisation is (but this is a long story, although discussed in various papers). In logical terms, an ontology is just a logical theory expressing a set of meaning postulates. In my opinion, none of the current definitions of a computational ontology is compatible with the idea that ontologies are algorithms. If you want to use classing terms of computer science, you can perhaps compare an ontology to a data structure, but not to an algorithm. In any way, this is not a topic to be addressed in this summit. So, if people are still interested, I would suggest them to move the discussion to the general Ontolog list. Best, Nicola On 31 Jan 2012, at 04:14, Jack Ring wrote:
If you think that emergence, a very important phenomenon in systems, and system models is not a core issue for ontologists to deal with then I guess the intersection of SE and ontology in this forum may turn out to be only the transform from drawing (pump 102) to purchase order (sku2058), i.e., engineering of systems. On Jan 30, 2012, at 6:18 PM, Obrst, Leo J. wrote:
Make it explicit what the contribution is, focus. We simply don't have the open-endedness of the whole Ontolog Forum, where nearly anything and everything goes. Thanks, Leo -----Original Message----- From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jack Ring Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 7:29 PM To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] Ontolgizing rain & snow [was: Track 1&2 Joint Mission and Session Abstracts] Leo, Apologies for the ambiguities. The subject is not rain and snow. Those are the metaphors. The subject is emergence and the special confusions of triple-point systems. OBTW, perhaps ecologies are systems only in the minds of humans. if you don't want to take up natural vs. human-imputed systems this year so be it. However it is already a big confusion in the societal demand for systems. For example sponsors do not know that more than 90% or Mother Nature's experiments fail. On Jan 30, 2012, at 5:20 PM, Obrst, Leo J. wrote:
I suggest just like we are not addressing natural ecologies, at least not in this summit. Or at the least: not in this thread yet. We are ontologizing rain and snow. Thanks, Leo -----Original Message----- From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jack Ring Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 7:01 PM To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] Ontolgizing rain & snow [was: Track 1&2 Joint Mission and Session Abstracts] I think you will have a difficult time explaining why natural systems are not human-presumed systems. And closer to reality, yet, if human engineered systems contain N humans as active components then what? On Jan 30, 2012, at 4:55 PM, Obrst, Leo J. wrote:
What do you think? Thanks, Leo -----Original Message----- From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jack Ring Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 6:24 PM To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] Ontolgizing rain & snow [was: Track 1&2 Joint Mission and Session Abstracts] Doug, Thank you for this. As is probably obvious by now or will be by the end of this message I am not a practicing ontologist. I am struck by several presumptions and gaps in the Cyc example. Perhaps I just can't read right or perhaps these are not proper ontology stuff. As I said in the last track, I am not sure I am looking for ontology as the means for systemist interoperability. Perhaps I seek some yet-to-be-conceived semiotic transformer. At any rate, humor me regarding the following: The example doesn't say where rain comes from. Mentions clouds but clouds are not rain or they wouldn't be "up there." I am looking for the notion of emergence. Rain happens after raindrops occur. Why do raindrops occur? And why snowflakes rather than raindrops? And why not mention fog as well? And Relative Humidity? OBTW, rain water is not fresh. Raindrops condense on particles, every raindrop has one therefor rainwater is laden with particles (especially ones resulting from cloud seeding). OBTW, Raindrops fall on me in Arizona while the sun is shining. No storm evident. Just an occlusion of a low and high pressure trough waaay up there. I am not trying to be smart alecky here. It is just that systems work challenges you to think beyond the active entities and consider the not's as well. Otherwise Unintended Consequences are born. I maliciously mentioned rain and snow because H2O has a triple point, vapor, liquid, solid depending on pressure, temperature, etc., Not all substances have such triple point. Methinks "SYSTEM" does which is the root of much confusion therefore a challenge for ontologists. Thanks for your attention. Jack On Jan 26, 2012, at 10:58 AM, doug foxvog wrote:
Rain & snow refer to physical precipitation particles, the precipitation in bulk, the process that produces the precipitation, storms as events, and storms as objects. Cyc's representation of these different, but related things (leaving out comments and some additional statements) includes: (isa PrecipitationParticle ExistingObjectType) (genls PrecipitationParticle Particle) (genls PrecipitationParticle InanimateObject-Natural) (isa RainProcess ProcessType) (genls RainProcess PrecipitationProcess) (isa SnowProcess ProcessType) (genls SnowProcess PrecipitationProcess) (isa Rainwater ExistingStuffType) (genls Rainwater (LiquidFn Water-Fresh)) (isa SnowMob ExistingStuffType) (genls SnowMob (SolidFn Water)) (isa Snowflake ExistingObjectType) (genls Snowflake PrecipitationParticle) (genls (MobFn Snowflake) SnowMob) (isa Raindrop ExistingObjectType) (genls Raindrop PrecipitationParticle) (genls Raindrop Rainwater) (relationAllExists outputsGenerated PrecipitationProcess (MobFn PrecipitationParticle)) (relationAllExists outputsGenerated RainProcess (MobFn Raindrop)) (relationAllExists outputsGenerated SnowProcess (MobFn Snowflake)) (isa StormAsObject ExistingObjectType) (genls StormAsObject InanimateObject-Natural) (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject CloudInSky) (isa RainStormAsObject ExistingObjectType) (genls RainStormAsObject StormAsObject) (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject CloudInSky) (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject (MobFn Raindrop)) (isa SnowStormAsObject ExistingObjectType) (genls SnowStormAsObject StormAsObject) (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject CloudInSky) (relationAllExists physicalParts SnowStormAsObject (MobFn Snowflake)) (not (relationExistsAll doneBy PrecipitationProcess StormAsObject)) (comment (not (relationExistsAll doneBy PrecipitationProcess StormAsObject)) "A StormAsObject would include Duststorms, which don't (necessarily) include precipitation.") (relationExistsAll doneBy RainProcess RainStormAsObject) (relationExistsAll doneBy SnowProcess SnowStormAsObject) (isa StormAsEvent ExistingObjectType) (genls StormAsEvent ImmediateWeatherProcess) (isa RainStormAsEvent ExistingObjectType) (genls RainStormAsEvent StormAsEvent) (relationAllExists subprocesses RainStormAsEvent RainProcess) (relationAllExists doneBy RainStormAsEvent RainStormAsObject) (isa SnowStormAsEvent ExistingObjectType) (genls SnowStormAsEvent StormAsEvent) (relationAllExists subprocesses SnowStormAsEvent SnowProcess) (relationAllExists doneBy SnowStormAsEvent SnowStormAsObject) (isa SnowStormAsObject ExistingObjectType) (genls SnowStormAsObject StormAsObject) (relationAllExists physicalParts SnowStormAsObject (MobFn Snowflake))
On Jan 26, 2012, at 6:09 AM, Matthew West wrote:
differently. Hardly an ontological problem per se, but certainly a problem that causes confusion in developing ontologies. This is always a problem for ontologists. The different meanings have to be teased apart.
but I do recognise activities, physical objects, and participants. Under this world view all individuals (including activities, physical objects and participants) are spatiotemporal extents, and you discover that an activity consists of its participants, where a participant is the state of a physical object that participates in some activity. So I recognise the things you talk about. However, I would assign the term "system" to the physical object the participant is a state of. I would not restrict the term "system" merely to physical objects. But having multiple clearly defined concepts which different people use that word for in different contexts, is fine. They just need different URIs. -- doug
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Web site also changed to www.loa.istc.cnr.it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nicola Guarino Head, Laboratory for Applied Ontology (LOA), ISTC-CNR Institute for Cognitive Sciences and Technologies National Research Council Via alla Cascata, 56/C 38100 Povo (Trento), Italy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Editor in Chief, Applied Ontology (IOS Press) www.applied-ontology.org President, Int. 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Jack Ring ---02/01/2012 05:48:34 PM---Dear Nicola, Thanks for the response.