Re: [ontolog-forum] "Data/digital Object" Identities

[William Frank <williamf.frank@xxxxxxxxx>]

Thanks for this, Gary

I agree with your comments below.   It is all kind of appalling, I don't know how to fix it, and think the issue is too deep and wide to make any more comments in forum posts. 

And, more generally, what I see in your example below is more along the race to standardization.  Standardize first, find out what works, never.

What I would like to do is participate in creating some kind of Bourbaki set of foundational statements on identity, with the like-minded here. 

Regards

Wm

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Gary Berg-Cross <gbergcross@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Thanks all for the interesting comments on this which seems to agree that as William put it:
"identification in cyberspace is what creates the the acute need for better understanding of identifications."

I do find that computer scientists, programmers and the like often get off on a fast track without understanding some of the down side of ignored issues.

They start talking about identifiers of digital objects and then jump to this as some basis for interoperability as in:

"The system of federated registries in this Recommendation is based on an open architecture that enables interoperability across arbitrary information systems."

 It is in part a misplaced reliance on concretized identity management (identifier is a series of bits) as opposed to understanding that these identities (rather than The Identity) arise from a process of identifying something is some useful way among may such ways as Hans noted.

BTW, if one wants to see some of that people are talking about as part of identity and ID management for digital objects you can look at:

X.1255 : Framework for discovery of identity management information
http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-X.1255-201309-I

Since William has a long time interest following his  Bachelor's work  on some of this his comments may be interesting. The above quote on interoperability is from this report as is this large claim (pg 7):

"The components are:
a) a scalable and distributed identifier system for the identification of DEs and for identifier resolution;
b) repositories for access to and management of digital entities; and
c) registries for federated search and discovery. Using these components, the resulting
distributed system can be managed through interface specifications and protocols instead of through the on-going maintenance of specific components.

Digital entities are the core element around which all other components and services are built and managed. Digital entities do not replace existing formats and data structures, but instead provide a common means for representing these formats and structures, allowing them to be uniformly interpreted and thus moveable in and out of various heterogeneous information systems and across changes in systems over time."

Gary Berg-Cross, Ph.D.  

gbergcross@xxxxxxxxx     

http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?GaryBergCross

NSF INTEROP Project  

http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0955816

SOCoP Executive Secretary

Independent Consultant

Potomac, MD

240-426-0770

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 9:47 AM, William Frank <williamf.frank@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Cyber Identity has been at the heart of my job for the last three years, and identity an interest ever since I wrote my bachelor's thesis on Leibniz and Master's thesis on Frege.

I agree with you, entirely Hans,  and would say that implicit in your language is the essence of the problem: 'identity' is a kind of a very ghostly abstraction without much mooring.  Identity is surely not an attribute of a thing.   What HAS a mooring is the ACT of identification  As you put it Hans, "assigning an identity."  The act of identification is, as you say, a social act, and is of course context dependent. 

Also, I agree that identification in cyberspace is what creates the the acute need for better understanding of identifications.

But, it is not an entirely new problem, applications and deeper dives into what is already known might suffice. 

For example, Gary's questions: Is a data object in one format the same as a data object in a different format or a different one?  The bit streams can change but the original identity might be considered the same."  This applies to *all* human artifacts.  When is Moby Dick the 'same' book?    However, a new huge confusion has arisen, the conflating of identifiers with identities. 

As Gary says, 'seems like a large claim."  Worse than large, if people think that computers can provide mathematical certainly about things in the real world, the assurance that, in effect, a passport MUST be a correct indentifier, then we are another step along the way to handing over autocratic authority to the machines.  Instead of 'we do not have a record of your payment'. we go do 'you did not make the payment.' 

I am not sure how Jack's point about URIs relates, except that surely, 'to be is to be a URI" is another weird way the world might be going.    For cyber thiings and their identifying characteristics, I would agree with you, Jack.  But, I also think that identification of *physical* objects might never or not for a long time be replicatable with information about the object that can be captured on a computer. 

Wm

On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 7:22 PM, Jack Park <jackpark@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I've been importing ontologies into a topic map of late. It's rather surprising how many URIs have been assigned to the concept with the label "Person".

I think it is correct to argue that there are many different ways in which some entity is identified by different individuals and communities, so it would seem that any "Architecture" which grows up around digital objects -- which, by many lights, are proxies for subjects one way or another-- should be capable of capturing all knowable ways to identify that object, regardless of the database identifier assigned to it locally.

On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Hans Polzer <hpolzer@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Gary,

 

I tend to agree with your musings. The issue of identity (of whatever entity) is certainly one that the network revolution has brought to increased importance, if for no other reason than that it exposes the identities that anyone assigns to an entity/object, be it digital or “real world” to those who may assign a different identity to that same entity/object, however “sameness” might be defined. The NCOIC Net Centric Principles grappled with this issue by means of a principle called “Entity Primacy”, which basically states that whatever identity you might assign to an entity/object, it has other identities in other, usually collective, frames of reference. Deal with that, as opposed to assuming that the identity you assigned has primacy. Usually that would mean recognizing that the entity/object has other identities in other frames of reference, and one should be prepared to map the locally assigned identity to one or more other identities in other frames of reference, presumably those used by actors with whom one might want to exchange information about said entity/object.

 

Of course, one could argue that any entity/object has some “natural” or “inherent” identity, such as the PID referenced below, UUID’s (Universal Unique Identifiers), or a person’s DNA, or perhaps more pragmatically, the VIN of an automobile. But even these assume a context of some, usually implicit, scope and an associated frame of reference. In other words, such an identity is inherently one of the collective within which the entity/object is being identified. Entity Primacy therefore points out that no collective context has a priori primacy for assigning identities to entities/objects. One needs to specify which collective context a particular identity for an entity/object is based on/derived from. And yes, this is recursive, since such collective contexts for assigning identities will themselves have identities in, presumably, larger contexts.

 

Humans just tend to glom onto some collective context (such as DNS) and assume that everyone else will simply use that collective context for identifying entities, forgetting that not everything uses DNS, even in the networking domain. PIDs would certainly help things – but they are not universal and they likely assume some representational context dimensions, as you surmise in your email. That’s OK as long as one is explicit about what those are and understand the scope limitations that they imply when interacting with others who might not share those assumptions.

 

Hans

 

From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gary Berg-Cross
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:39 PM
To: [ontolog-forum]
Subject: [ontolog-forum] "Data/digital Object" Identities

 

There is a bit of a movement to discuss digital data in terms of Digital Objects and an  "Architecture."  One rationale for this seems to be to provide an easier mechanism for the "creation of, and access to, digital objects as discrete data structures with unique, resolvable identifiers"  - From a CNRI’s Press Release. 

It is further argued that such Digital Objects with a persistent ID (PID) will "provide a foundation for representing and interacting with information on the Internet."

Seems like a large claim and I wonder what this community thinks of this idea. After all Identity is quite a semantic issue and intuitions about identities for digital objects might cause some problems.  They seem quite mutable and we'd need to distinguish the ID for the raw data from each processing version of it.  Is a data object in one format the same as a data object in a different format or a different one?  The bit streams can change but the original identity might be considered the same.

 

 

Gary Berg-Cross, Ph.D.  

gbergcross@xxxxxxxxx     

http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?GaryBergCross

NSF INTEROP Project  

http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0955816

SOCoP Executive Secretary

Independent Consultant

Potomac, MD

240-426-0770

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