Hi Seab,
Agreed. FOL is purely declarative. That
is both its strength and its weakness as a communicable representation.
People naturally mix declarative and
procedural concepts because those are the ways they act in normal life,
therefore it echoes in their conversations and attitudes through repeated
situations.
Purely declarative representations are
great for some things, lousy for others. Try teaching a kid to ride a bike
declaratively, and you will quickly transition into How-To phrases instead of
What-Is phrases. Try detailing a practice and procedure document without
How-To declarative phrases and the other extreme comes into view.
Both views are needed. Either one is like
watching an old black-and-white movie in all black or all white. There isn’t
much to see.
-Rich
Sincerely,
Rich Cooper
EnglishLogicKernel.com
Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com
9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2
From:
ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of sean barker
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010
10:51 AM
To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ontolog-forum] Fw: Oooh,
FOL is too hard to learn.
In teaching programming, I used to start
with a series of simple programs that showed the behaviour of the constructs
being discussed, on the theory that many students (I was teaching undergraduate
Mechanical Engineers) understood behaviour better than abstract explanations.
That would suggest that the problem with teach FOL is that that there is no
observable behaviour with a FOL statement. One is reminded that children learn
about 3-D by crawling round things, rather than simply looking at them.
Seab Barker, Bristol
From:
ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rich Cooper
Sent: 19 October 2010 04:56
To: '[ontolog-forum] '
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Oooh,
FOL is too hard to learn.
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John and anyone, comments below,
-Rich
Sincerely,
Rich Cooper
EnglishLogicKernel.com
Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com
9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2
-----Original Message-----
From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John F. Sowa
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 5:33 PM
To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Oooh, FOL is too hard to learn.
Ed,
I have taught predicate calculus to average engineers,
and I believe
that the notation is truly *abysmal* and *unusable*
for anybody who
is not a born and bred mathematician. The ideas
seem to sink in
while they're in the classroom, but by the next week,
their minds
are totally devoid of any concept from the previous
week.
This engineer/computer scientist
agrees. You mathematicians have a culture that uses symbols that
literally have symbolic meaning to you (fine with me), but I use symbols to
chunk snatches of experience, to apply them to new experiences in the present
or future, etc.
> I think, John, that you are here exemplifying the
top 20%, who think
> that every other competent engineer can do more
or less what they do.
I most certainly do not believe that at all. I
know seemingly
intelligent people for whom anything that looks
remotely like algebra
is an instant turn off. I have spoken to
publishers who say that
each equation that appears in a book will cut sales by
50%. That
means 10 equations will reduce sales by a factor of a
thousand.
> Many people use modeling languages in the same
way, to state
> unclear thoughts clearly and often
incorrectly. They don't use
> use the language to mean exactly what the formal
semantics of
> of the language says is meant by the syntax they
used.
I completely agree.
> Many people have no problem with simple syllogisms,
but are seriously
> confused about quantification.
I totally agree.
> And I can tell you first hand that the first
encounter between
> electrical engineering students and boolean
algebra is a filter -- the
> ones who will work in electronics understand
quickly, the ones who don't
> understand quickly will become radar technicians
or something. It is
> not just the notation; it is the
abstraction. Many of the
> simplifications of gating logic are
counter-intuitive.
Again, I have had exactly the same experience.
Iterate again here. The math itself
is interesting only as a tool, not as an abstraction in itself, unless
it’s the first time I hear it. But repeating it over and over as
though its
> FOL is not casual logic; it is a mathematical
discipline.
We have to distinguish here between notations for FOL,
and the use of FOL as expressed in ordinary language.
> Many intelligent people can use logic correctly
in their work, but
> they don't have the discipline, and most of them
don't understand
> that there is a discipline.
Yes, that is certainly true. I most definitely
do *not* believe
that formal logic is the foundation for NL
semantics. On the
contrary, formal logic is an *abstraction* from NLs
when they
are being used correctly -- even when (or perhaps
especially when)
the people aren't aware of the underlying principles.
People who have no education beyond 4 grade can reason
very
accurately about subjects they know very well.
But they're
hopeless when it gets to any kind of
abstraction. Unfortunately,
that point is true of engineers who have had 16 years
of education.
> Conversely, the most astonishing use of FOL I
have ever seen was a
> 3-year-old, who...
That's not a counterexample. Three-year-old kids
are much more
intelligent than the average engineer. That's
because they haven't
been brainwashed by 16 years of so-called education.
When computers first became available at large
corporations,
scientists and engineers were among the *last* to use
them.
They never learned to use them until their *children*
shamed
them into learning how.
Summary: I think we agree quite well on all
these issues.
But I still maintain that they're not an excuse for
designing
software and notations (such as UML diagrams) that do
not have
a well-defined foundation. People can benefit
from a well
designed system, even if they don't know how it was
designed.
John