To: | "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> |
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From: | Jawit Kien <jawit.kien@xxxxxxxxx> |
Date: | Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:55:47 -0500 |
Message-id: | <9f9644bb0904211255i380ad2e4j4c1b86016148df1c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> |
I'm very new to this forum, so some of my statement's below may be wrong-headed, but I'd like to understand. Please forgive my lack of knowledge. I also don't want to sound like I am attacking you (Bart) since I read another one of your postings and I was impressed by how clear it was. Unfortunately, I'm not understanding this one. On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Bart Gajderowicz <bgajdero@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: *** Originally from [ontolog-forum] web-syllogism-and-worldview *** Your result is hierarchical or a hierarchy? You defining a function that has a result which is a hiearchy, or are you describing the result (presumably of the comparison operation) as being able to be described as a matching some defintion of "hierarchy", hence able to use the adjective "hierarchical" to describe it. I assume a cyclic definition is one that uses the defined term in the definition of that term. like saying a cat is a cat with black fur. Or, a #$Thing is an instance of a #$Collection and a #$Collection is an instance of a #$Thing. I've been told that Set theory does allow self-references in definitions but Mereology Theory does not. Which are you using?
Don't you agree that logical syntax (and the meanings from FOPL) just provide a different tool to describe phenomena? Isn't the point of science to describe things, so a more precise tool to describe it would be better?
If semantics is just a fancy word for meaning, what do the people who use the term RES mean by the phrase "real meaning" ? I can see formal semantics as attaching some formal mathematical model to a formal syntax defined by a grammar of some sort, but what other kind of meaning can they mean? I'm thinking of some kind of rigorous definition, I'm sure anyone can come up with a definition that doesn't have a rigor attached to it. "It means what I say it means" or summat like that.
You said "at some point" is that a physical location, or a point in time? or at some step in a logical inference? When you say "particle" are you just trying to be more general than just saying "object" or "thing" or are you thinking of sub atomic particles, or particles in a language? I'm sorry, even when I try to state what you just said formally, I get too many questions. classification - the act of assigning something a class or classification - the hierarchy of classes and subclasses that could be used assign some thing a class. similar attributes - how is this different that having a "certain relationship" aren't attributes relationships too? what makes the "certain relationship" special enough? and don't attributes refer to something else as well? I assume "type of X particle" is another way of saying the particle can be assigned to the class X. Why do you use the word "type" here instead of class?
This stuff sounds like a mix between physics and some kind of knowledge representation to me, hence I am very confused.
If we are talking about physics and atomic particles, isn't there some kind of law that says you can't know location and some other quality at the same time?
I assume you mean class membership in the particles that are acting in a certain way historically, which is what you were talking about before. Why would inference, fuzzy logic or uncertainty even come up? This may be used to either reach a new level You seem to be using "reaction with Z" as a way of classifying X & Y. how is this different from the attributes and relationships you talked about earlier? By the way, now you seem to be talking about molecules instead of particles. I'm very confused about the actual things you are trying to classify. Unless this is some metaphor that I don't understand.
Does you added axiom mean that you basically add a transitive axiom for R & R2 at the same time? doesn't the original axion mean that the relation R obeys a transitive axiom ?
so A is a transitive hierarchy, and B is a transitive hierarchy. ( actually, I presume they are actually variables that stand for two specific transitive hierarchies ) I think of a hierarchy as being iso-morphic to a tree of nodes. Thus R10 is a relationship between trees.
so K-9 is a class, Species is a class, Animal is a Class, Species is a specialized class of Animal and K-9 is an instance of the class Species ? presumably both A & B are each a hierarchy of classes? so my tree-of-nodes has each node as a class?
Fido is an instance of the class K-9 ? What is the tie to A and B? Is Fido an instance of A and at the same time an instance of B ? But what does it mean to be an instance of a hierarchy? I would have thought an instance of a hierarchy was a tree, but now you seem to be defining instance as a relationship between some other group of things to the classes that are the nodes in the trees. so Fido can't be an instance of A or B, I guess, unless Fido is the name for some tree which can be classified as a "K-9".
R10 is an un-named relation that holds between the class K-9 and the class Animal ? But where do A and B come into this? I thought R10 was taking hierarchies, not elements of a hierarchy.
What does this mean? an instance attribute to start with? Are we following some path, that I haven't seen explicated yet, which has an instance attribute (presumably a relation on instances) as the "starting point" of the path?
whoa, didn't you just say a paragraph ago that F10(Fido,Animal) does NOT hold?
It seems that you are engaging in some logical conclusion that almost makes sense, but not quite there. If Animal is a category, which I assume is something like a #$Collection, it is not of the same natural kind as Fido, so you can't infer along an instance-of chain which has two categories in it. in other words, since Fido is an instance of K-9 then the instances of K-9 have the same predicates as Fido, but K-9 is a collection, so it will have the predicates for collections. not the predicates for instances of K-9. by transitivity, I would assume that since K-9 is a specialization of Animal, then if Fido is an instance of K-9, then Fido is an instance of Animal. hence the the predicates that apply to instances of Animal would also apply to Fido as well. I would NOT assume that the predicates that apply to K-9 also apply to the instances of Animal, as presumably there could be other specializations of Animal which are disjoint from K-9. The predicates that applied to the instances of Animal would apply to the instances of some other specialization of Animal (call it Feline), as well as K-9. That is what it mans to say that K-9 is a specialization of Animal. (or that Feline is a specialization of Animal) JK
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