Re: [ontolog-forum] Standardization Processes (Was Semantic Web shortcom

["Adrian Walker" <adriandwalker@xxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Ron --

You wrote...

In the browser wars, you are perhaps mixing standards with compliance
Perhaps there is too much ambiguity in the standard.
HTTP has won the standards war but compliance is still questionable.

I'd guess that it's very hard to write a comprehensive, unambiguous standard for anything as complex as a browser or a universal upper ontology.  Devilish details keep surfacing. 

For a browser example, Firefox on Linux will display text with newlines in an <input> field of suitable height in pixels, whereas Firefox and IE on Windows will only show the first line.

So, that means that cross browser scripting also has to be cross-OS scripting.

Perhaps all standards should be supplemented with (growing) sets of regression tests?  Including ontologies that are intended to become standards.

                              Cheers,  -- Adrian

Internet Business Logic
A Wiki and SOA Endpoint for Executable Open Vocabulary English over SQL and RDF
Online at www.reengineeringllc.com    Shared use is free

Adrian Walker
Reengineering

On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:43 AM, Ron Wheeler <rwheeler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Adrian Walker wrote:
> Ron, Pat --
>
> I can't just resist repeating the quote that "the nice thing about
> standards is that there are so many of them to choose from".
>
> Seriously though, if we follow Ron's scenario for standardization, it
> must be very early days for browsers.  Consider the heroic efforts
> that go into cross-browser scripting of complex UIs.  Some of us wish
> that IE would get "swept away" by Firefox, but it seems that some
> dot-gov areas have actually decided that the only permissible browser
> is a particular version of IE.
>
>                               Cheers,  -- Adrian
>

Just because a standard comes into existence does not mean that all
players will follow it.
The number of "standard" character sets is pretty impressive.

In the browser wars, you are perhaps mixing standards with compliance
Perhaps there is too much ambiguity in the standard.
HTTP has won the standards war but compliance is still questionable.

The battle for a set of document standards for Word Processing is
perhaps a better example of a major computing issue that is still
evolving toward a limited single set of universally accepted standards
for document interchange. Microsoft is fighting a strong defence of its
proprietary interest and has a lot of support from its customers.
This is much older than the browser wars.


Ron

> Internet Business Logic
> A Wiki and SOA Endpoint for Executable Open Vocabulary English over
> SQL and RDF
> Online at www.reengineeringllc.com

> <http://www.reengineeringllc.com>    Shared use is free

>
> Adrian Walker
> Reengineering
>
> On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 6:26 PM, Ron Wheeler
> <rwheeler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

> <mailto:rwheeler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>
>     Patrick Cassidy wrote:
>     > Ron,
>     >   Concerning one of your points:
>     > [RW] >
>     >
>     >> In general, I think that the academic side should have only limited
>     >> responsibility for the filling up of the ontologies. This is
>     the role
>     >> of the IBMs, Suns, General Motors, Pentagon, Artifact
>     Softwares, etc. Once
>     >> the research community decides on a good architecture to
>     represent the
>     >> reality of a situation or set of entities, it is up to those
>     who have a
>     >> business or economic reason care about this should pay to have the
>     >> details added.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >    It is important to distinguish the *Foundation ontology*,
>     which I believe
>     > should contain all the concept representations needed to create (by
>     > combination) representations of any specialized concept, and the
>     specialized
>     > ontologies that are used in specific applications.  The former
>     can be used
>     > to enable interoperability, and are more useful as they gain
>     more users; the
>     > latter can be as idiosyncratic and individual as the application
>     requires.
>     >    For the foundation ontology, the academic community is more
>     likely to
>     > have useful ideas than any commercial organization driven by
>     short-term and
>     > specialized needs.
>     >    Foundation ontologies are likely to be less ambiguous and
>     therefore more
>     > useful if they include multiple example instances of the
>     entities that they
>     > represent.  This would require at least some degree of "filling up".
>     >
>
>     My understanding is that most of the "best" standards have come about
>     through a consensus between the major commercial players with the
>     active
>     (frequently funded) participation of the academic community.
>     I am not sure that all of the commercial interest in standards
>     building
>     can be termed as "short-term".
>
>     My own feeling about a Foundation ontology is that, like any standard,
>     it needs widespread acceptance and usage in the commercial world to
>     warrant acceptance by a standards body.
>
>     The construction of a "standard" and the acceptance of a
>     "standard" is a
>     long process and often many are proposed before one is generally
>     accepted.
>     I am old enough to recall using many "networking standards" that had
>     large followings (2780/3780, DecNet, SNA, DARPANET, Novell, etc.)
>     before being swept away by TCP/IP. It took about 30 years and many
>     academic and commercial proposals that looked like winners died
>     slow and
>     agonizing deaths. Their deaths paved the way for the Internet.
>
>     I suspect that the same will be true of  "foundation ontologies". Many
>     will be proposed and a few will be accepted. We may be luckier in this
>     case since the Internet, the open source movement and forums like
>     this,
>     will likely speed up the process.
>
>
>     Ron
>
>
>     > Pat
>     >
>     > Patrick Cassidy
>     > MICRA, Inc.
>     > 908-561-3416
>     > cell: 908-565-4053

>     > cassidy@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:cassidy@xxxxxxxxx>

>     >
>     >
>     >> -----Original Message-----
>     >> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

>     [mailto:ontolog-forum- <mailto:ontolog-forum->
>     >> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On
>     Behalf Of Ron Wheeler
>     >> Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 11:21 AM
>     >> To: [ontolog-forum]
>     >> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Semantic Web shortcomings [was Re:
>     ANN:
>     >> GoodRelations - The Web Ontology for E-Commerce]
>     >>
>     >> Very clear and to the point response.
>     >>
>     >> I am not sure that structured English is absolutely required.
>     >> A GUI that allows the SME to create a new instance of an object and
>     >> link
>     >> that to other instances of objects as well as specify the
>     properties of
>     >> the instance and links to external references is probably all
>     the SME
>     >> needs for a basic system.
>     >>
>     >> If this allows searching and navigating through the ontology to
>     select
>     >> the objects and instances, in a convenient way, that should
>     meet most
>     >> of
>     >> the needs.
>     >>
>     >> In general, I think that the academic side should have only limited
>     >> responsibility for the filling up of the ontologies. This is
>     the role
>     >> of
>     >> the IBMs, Suns, General Motors, Pentagon, Artifact Softwares,
>     etc. Once
>     >> the research community decides on a good architecture to
>     represent the
>     >> reality of a situation or set of entities, it is up to those
>     who have a
>     >> business or economic reason care about this should pay to have the
>     >> details added.
>     >>
>     >> What they decide to contribute back to the overall community
>     will be
>     >> based on their need to share the cost of maintenance and their
>     >> understanding of the value of having their particular view of a
>     part of
>     >> the universe adopted as a "standard" weighed against the loss of a
>     >> proprietary asset.
>     >> This is the basis of the open source movement. Some academic
>     and vanity
>     >> products get created but the big open source packages have
>     corporate
>     >> support when the corporations best interest is served by sharing.
>     >> Where it is not, the extensions to open source ontologies will be
>     >> retained as proprietary to the creator and they will get any
>     benefit
>     >> and
>     >> have to pay all the costs.
>     >>
>     >> In my case, if I come up with an ontology for the process
>     industries, I
>     >> will have to decide if it serves our best interests to release
>     this and
>     >> hope that the big companies adopt it (and pay us to extend it
>     or apply
>     >> it) or to keep it private and resell it to clients one at a
>     time. Not a
>     >> simple decision to make but not hard to understand.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> Knowledge engineering work  is very much like instructional design
>     >> work.
>     >> Someone gives you a stack of manuals, drawing, equipment specs and
>     >> manuals and provides you with access to the engineers, maintenance
>     >> supervisors and operations supervisors. You take these and
>     figure out
>     >> how to teach someone all about the process and what they need
>     to know
>     >> to
>     >> do their job safely and effectively.
>     >> Coming up with a framework and basic principles that drive the
>     ontology
>     >> will require input from academic sources (here, books,
>     articles, paid
>     >> research, etc) as well the traditional resources listed above.
>     >>
>     >> I also do not expect to get all of it right the first time.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> I have been a consultant long enough to appreciate the joke: "A
>     >> consultant is someone who borrows you watch, tells you what
>     time it is
>     >> and keeps your watch."
>     >>
>     >> It is very infrequent that you get to tell a client something
>     of great
>     >> importance, that they did not already know.
>     >> Often, your greatest value is in helping them see an issue in
>     the right
>     >> context.
>     >> If you are good at consulting, you often just give them someone who
>     >> cares about their problem(for $$$) and gives them someone at their
>     >> level
>     >> to discuss the issue until the choices and action items become
>     clear.
>     >>
>     >> We certainly do not pretend to know anything about the chemistry or
>     >> physics or engineering of process plants. We are very good at
>     >> organizing
>     >> information and presenting it back to the client in a way that
>     they can
>     >> judge whether we understand it or not. We also have some experience
>     >> which helps put their priorities and operation issues in
>     perspective.
>     >>
>     >> Ron
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> Ed Barkmeyer wrote:
>     >>
>     >>> Ron Wheeler wrote:
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>> I am not sure that ontology can be applied to high value projects
>     >>>> without some elements of AI.
>     >>>>
>     >>> I always assumed that "axiomatic ontology" was one branch of AI.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>> I am looking for intelligent agents (that are not humans -
>     which I
>     >>>> think, implies artificial) that can draw actionable
>     conclusions in
>     >>>> complex situations faster than humans.
>     >>>>
>     >>> I think that is the general idea in knowledge engineering.  And it
>     >>> also applies to the Semantic Web.  The idea is to allow the
>     engine to
>     >>> discard the chaff in the Google results and present you with
>     only the
>     >>> grain.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>> The other side of the equation is the tool sets that make it easy
>     >>>>
>     >> for
>     >>
>     >>>> a SME (Subject Matter Expert) to transfer his or her
>     understanding
>     >>>>
>     >> of
>     >>
>     >>>> the universe into a model.
>     >>>>
>     >>> There is work going on in that area, but it is definitely not
>     ready
>     >>> for prime time.  There are 5 or 6 "structured English"
>     projects, but
>     >>> they don't really help the domain expert become a modeler,
>     which is a
>     >>> skill.  And there is the automated text analysis work, which keeps
>     >>> getting better and better, but still isn't good.  (Natural
>     language
>     >>>
>     >> is
>     >>
>     >>> just too messy.  It is amazing that we ever understand one
>     another.)
>     >>> The hybrid approach starts with a "sketch ontology" of the domain,
>     >>>
>     >> and
>     >>
>     >>> then uses either the expert or the text to refine it.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>> I failed to realize that the gaining of PhDs was the only goal in
>     >>>> life. (Too much time spent in the real world!)
>     >>>>
>     >>> That is really a Catch-22.  Much of the government grant money
>     goes
>     >>>
>     >> to
>     >>
>     >>> academic institutions.  Most of the research, and almost all
>     of the
>     >>> product, of academic institutions is done with student labor.
>     >>>
>     >> Capable
>     >>
>     >>> students are willing to perform the labors of Hercules for a
>     >>>
>     >> pittance,
>     >>
>     >>> as long as it leads to a degree in a few years.  Degrees are
>     granted
>     >>> for advancing the knowledge base of the science.  If a reputable
>     >>> institution takes the money to build an ontology, it can't find a
>     >>> competent student to do the work, because it can't give a
>     degree for
>     >>> recording existing knowledge.  So the ontology work has to be
>     coupled
>     >>> with some ostensible technological advance, and the latter becomes
>     >>>
>     >> the
>     >>
>     >>> dominant theme of the work (and usually vitiates any value
>     there may
>     >>> have been in the ontology).  The only way the work actually
>     gets done
>     >>> is under some other umbrella: the student is given the task of
>     >>> building the Augean stables ontology, "as a learning experience",
>     >>> before he will be allowed to do the exciting work that will
>     lead to
>     >>> his advanced degree.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>> The SME has the job of building the model of a fair amount of the
>     >>>> universe.
>     >>>> This SME might only have a high school education or junior
>     college
>     >>>> degree but he is the guy most knowledgeable about the
>     relationship
>     >>>> between valve 295 and the rest of the universe.
>     >>>> His knowledge may save a petrochemical plant as much money in one
>     >>>>
>     >> day
>     >>
>     >>>> as a PhD makes in a lifetime and may save many more lives.
>     >>>>
>     >>> And all that is required is a skilled knowledge engineer (with or
>     >>> without Ph.D.) who gets to talk to the SME, can find out that
>     valve
>     >>> 295 is significant, can determine from that conversation how it is
>     >>> related to the rest of the plant universe, and can properly
>     add that
>     >>> knowledge to the ontology.
>     >>>
>     >>> I am reminded of the senior manager who asked why no one in his
>     >>> organization had made the model we presented.  Voice from the
>     back of
>     >>> the room:  "Because it's nobody's <expletive> job to know how, and
>     >>> nobody's <expletive> job to do it."
>     >>>
>     >>> There is always a reason why certain things don't happen (and
>     another
>     >>> well-known substance does).
>     >>>
>     >>> -Ed
>     >>>
>     >>>
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