Re: [ontolog-forum] Watch out Watson: Here comes Amazon Machine Learning

[Azamat Abdoullaev <ontopaedia@xxxxxxxxx>]

"Logical is Real, and Real is Logical" is upgrading now to "Virtual is Real, and Real is Virtual".

Many classical philosophical ideas and logical systems are to be reviewed completely with emerging technologies.

The world is changing so fast that the human mind is failing to follow its pace, confusing itself with obsolete world views.

Very Stimulating Debate!  

Here is a bit more:

http://www.slideshare.net/ashabook/philosophy-science-arts-technology-grand-unification

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 10:50 PM, Edward Barkmeyer <ebarkmeyer@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

To follow up on Matthew’s position, I would say it a bit more strongly. 

 

Logical existence is a mathematical notion.  It characterizes things as being included in your chosen universe of discourse, which may thus serve as referents of logical variables quantified by ‘exists’ and ‘(for)all’, full stop.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with the philosophical notions of existence, metaphysics and ontology, UNTIL you import formal logical methods into your philosophical arguments. Proofs of existence of objects in a mathematical space are about an intentionally theoretical universe of discourse, which may or may not be founded in anything considered to be “real” or “actual”.  Conversely, when you use quantified logic in philosophical arguments, you have to define your universe of discourse – what things “exist” in your philosophy.

 

The fact that Greek philosophers did not clearly separate these ideas because they were exploring both of them more or less simultaneously does not excuse our creating similar confusion.  One word “existence”; two (or more) importantly different concepts. 

 

When Hamlet says “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy”, he is only saying that his personal UoD for reasoning about observed events includes things that Horatio’s  colder realism does not.

 

-Ed

 

From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thomas Johnston
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2015 3:46 PM
To: [ontolog-forum]
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Watch out Watson: Here comes Amazon Machine Learning - ZDNet - 2015.04.10

 

Matthew,

 

<<<<< 

MW>] I take logical existence to mean the things you can talk about, which is different from do things exist in the sense of being able to kick them.

 >>>>>

 

Ah, I take it that you are alluding to Dr. Johnson's refutation of Berkeley's idealist metaphysics.

 

1) Do prime numbers and compassion exist as more than "things you can talk about"? You certainly can't kick them. Do they not exist at all, then? Do they exist in some sense that is less "real" than the sense in which things you can kick exist?

 

2) For anything that has more than "logical existence", how do we discover anything about it that we can then talk about? How can we "see" what things are like independently of the perceptual gestalts (in the case of sense-data-accessible objects) and the conceptual gestalts that we use to think about them and make judgments about them? And if we can't see what things are like independently of these gestalts, then how can we say anything at all about what they are like -- really like, independent of the distorting effects of our gestalts?

 

This takes us back to Kant, who concluded that we could say nothing about the thing-in-itself (the ding-an-sich). And then on to the German Idealists who concluded that, in that case, why distinguish between things as we judge them to be and things as they are in themselves? Why not just drop the ding-an-sich?

 

So, mutatis mutandis, why distinguish between "logical existence" and "things exist(ing) in the sense of being able to kick them"? 

 

3) Supposing you want to make the distinction regardless, to what use would you put it? How would holding that distinction cause an ontology engineer to build different things than he would have built had he not held that distinction?

 

Tom

 

 

 

On Saturday, April 25, 2015 2:53 PM, Matthew West <dr.matthew.west@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

 

Dear Leo,

I think the real question is “What does it mean to exist in a logical context?”

 

LO> I think Quine had it mostly right, as Thomas mentioned, because he (Quine) tried to connect the semantics to the underlying ontological referents (once again, as many have tried) by using logic and the objects quantified over. However, I don’t think that is quite right, since at least to my mind, you can quantify over notions that you don’t really think exist, ever or even potentially (and so logic is a language for describing, not a language for telling you what there is). However, logic does allow you to have access to those things, and if you quantify over them, then they are at least candidates for real things, i.e, they provide a kind of low level entry for ontological commitment. So an ontology is a logical theory, yes, but about something in the real world. The “logical theory” part of that is easier than the “real world” part.

[MW>] I take logical existence to mean the things you can talk about, which is different from do things exist in the sense of being able to kick them.

 

Regards

 

Matthew West

_________________________________________________________________
Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/
To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J

_________________________________________________________________
Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/
To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J
 

_________________________________________________________________
Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/  
Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/  
Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/ 
To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J    (01)