> Paola, Azamat, Christopher, and Mike,
>
> PDM> But some passages in the lecture seem to create the impression
> > that physical world results from a certain kind of computation...
>
> I agree. And that's a metaphor that is helpful to a certain extent,
> but it also has some connotations that may be more distracting than
> illuminating.
>
> Peirce's semiotics is even more general than computation, since every
> kind of computation processes signs. But the idea of signs also has
> connotations that can be distracting. For such reasons, I think it's
> important to use multiple ways (or paradigms) for describing the same
> phenomena in order to emphasize what is common beneath all the
> terminology and metaphors.
>
> AA> But there are noted physicists, who could see the things i
> mentioned... S. Weinberg [24 October 2002, "Is the Universe a
> Computer?" The New York Review of Books].
>
> Thanks for the reference. I found the full article on the web:
>
>
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/15762
>
> I agree that the claim that the universe can be adequately modeled as
> a cellular automaton is dubious, but I'd like to quote another point
> from Weinberg's review:
>
> SW> The central theme of the book is easily stated. It is that many
> > simple rules can lead to complex behavior. The example that is >
> used repeatedly to illustrate this theme is a favorite toy of >
> complexity theorists known as the cellular automaton...
>
> I believe that central theme is important. But I'd also like to add
> that the traditional continuous mathematics used in physics also leads
> to enormous complexity. Newton's simple equation F=ma leads to and
> explains very complex kinds of systems. The carbon atom combined with
> a dozen or so other kinds of atoms leads to the enormous complexity of
> organic molecules, DNA, and life.
>
> I think that Weinberg makes many important observations, but I
> strongly disagree with his concluding sentence:
>
> SW> In the study of anything outside human affairs, including the
> > study of complexity, it is only simplicity that can be interesting.
>
> The only things that people can observe and act upon are extremely
> complex systems. It took thousands of years of civilization to
> discover those simple equations of theoretical physics (or those
> simple cellular automata). But people still see, feel, and think
> about those complex things and events.
>
> AA> The prolix volume mentioned was just a good instigation to view
> > the similarities and differences of two types of ontology.
>
> It's important to recognize those differences, but the issues
> discussed by Wolfram and Weinberg are very far from the central focus
> of the ontologies discussed in this forum.
>
> All the ontologies we have been considering focus on complex things
> and events that people see and talk about. They deliberately ignore
> issues in the foundations of physics and the universe, either from a
> digital or an analog point of view.
>
> CS> I think [Wolfram] does in fact claim that the real world has
> > a certain underlying simplicity.
>
> I agree, but he also talks about the complexity that arises from that
> simplicity. For the kinds of ontologies we have been discussing, the
> central focus is complex things and events. Any simulations or
> foundations in either quantum mechanics or cellular automata are very
> far removed from the focus of those ontologies.
>
> CS> But his work is about how apparently real-enough complexity
> > can be produced by simple automata. And on NKS p469 he does say >
> this:
> >
> > "But it does mean that if one once discovers a rule that
> > reproduces sufficiently many features of the universe, then
> > it becomes extremely likely that this rule is indeed the final
> > and correct one for the whole universe."
>
> I agree that any such rule would be very interesting. But it would
> have almost no effect on the ontologies such as Cyc, SUMO, BFO, Dolce,
> or any of the others we have been discussing.
>
> MB> I thought that the idea that the complexity of the real world
> > can arise from very simple patterns had been well explored by >
> Holland and others in the "complexity" world. Surely that's no >
> longer a contentious point...
>
> I agree. But the kind of simplicity that Wolfram and Weinberg are
> searching will have little or no effect on the ontologies discussed in
> this forum. Even if they discovered the magic rule that governs the
> entire universe, the application of that rule would involve an immense
> amount of computation before it could explain anything that we see
> every day.
>
> But there are some very important lessons we can learn from those
> discussions:
>
> 1. No ontology that has been proposed in this forum adequately
> addresses the fundamental principles (whether digital or
> analog) that govern the universe.
>
> 2. The central focus of our common ontologies has been the kinds
> of things and events we experience every day. Those things
> are immensely more complex than the simple foundations of
> theoretical physics (whatever they may be).
>
> 3. The categories in our ontologies are at best useful descriptions
> and approximations of commonsense phenomena. They are not and
> cannot be considered the ultimate foundations of everything.
>
> 4. No currently available ontology has proved to be adequate for
> describing everything that people talk about and write programs
> to process, but they have been useful for many purposes.
>
> 5. Therefore, our standards for ontology should support and relate
> an open-ended variety of specialized ontologies for different
> purposes. No single one of them can or should be considered
> the foundation for everything that we talk about or need to
> process on our computer systems.
>
> John Sowa
>
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