SemanticWiki mini-series: program planning session - Thu 18-Sep-2008    (1LX6)

Conference Call Details    (1LXA)

Attendees    (1LY3)

Background    (1LYD)

In a recent community planning session, it was identified that the development and application of semantic wikis has been growing at such a fast pace in the last 2~3 years. Those at the meeting agreed that it would be very useful to create an opportunity to allow those in the ontology community who are doing relevant work to come together, discuss their work, exchange ideas and explore possible collaboration.    (1LYE)

LiDing (RPI Tetherless World Constellatiion), SebastianSchaffert (Salzburg Research, Austria), HaroldSolbrig (Mayo Clinic), MaxVoelkel (AIFB-Karlsruhe) and PeterYim (Ontolog, CIM3) have graciously agreed to co-champion a mini-series with the above focus. They put some initial thoughts together, and started to reach out to others in the community to help forge a program that could be meaningful and useful to the broader ontology community.    (1M04)

This is the planning meeting that we hope individuals deeply interested in the subject of semantic wikis (researchers, developers, program administrators), including, of course, candidate speakers and panelists, can all come together virtually, to explore and put together this Semantic Wiki mini-series program.    (1M05)

See: SemanticWiki ... the developing home page for this mini-series project    (1LYF)

Agenda & Proceedings:    (1LYG)

SemanticWiki mini-series: program planning    (1LYH)

Resources    (1LYQ)

Discussions and Q & A:    (1LYT)

Transcript of the real time chat session:    (1LZ1)

 The transcript has been edited to improve on readability and relevance. Participants are encouraged to review, 
 and edit their own statements to clarify their messages, where appropriate.  =ppy    (1MF1)
 PeterYim: Welcome to the SemanticWiki mini-series: program planning session - Thu 18-Sep-2008    (1M8R)
 * Session Moderators: LiDing / SebastianSchaffert / HaroldSolbrig / PeterYim    (1M8S)
 * this session will be devoted to the establishment, discussion, program planning, coordination and 
   scheduling of events and activities for the emerging SemanticWiki mini-series. We are hoping that 
   individuals deeply interested in this topic, including candidate speakers and panelists, will be 
   able to join us at this planning session to help forge a program that will be useful and meaningful 
   to the community.    (1M8T)
 MatthiasSamwald: is the VNC session running already? i can't access it.    (1M8U)
 PeterYim: Matthias ... if you are behind firewalls, you'll probably have difficulities with the VNC service, 
           just download the slides and ruin it on your desktop, please    (1M8V)
 [ed. - In reference to SebastianSchaffert's remark, during the slide presentation, that the 
  traditional "openness" associated with wiki's is no longer a mandate, as there are 
  many private instances of wikis running, as people do set them up behind firewalls 
  in institutional settings. Other remarks that immediately follow may also be in response
  to things being said on the presentation.   =ppy]    (1M99)
 ChristophLange: concerning openness, I'd still say a wiki is more "open" than other systems, 
                 because usually most people who _do_ have access, are treated equally    (1M9A)
 PeterYim: I concur (regarding this point about "openness") ... thanks, Christoph    (1M9B)
 DeborahMcGuinness: i like the point that the community got going over beer    (1M9E)
 SebastianSchaffert: I am from Bavaria, so beer is of high importance (and supports creativity  )    (1M9F)
 ChristophLange:    (1M9G)
 SebastianSchaffert: regarding openness: what I am referring to is that in enterprise settings 
                     you often have to find a compromise; most companies are still hierarchically 
                     organised and they want some control over whom can access and modify what    (1M9H)
 SebastianSchaffert: but this is not really in conflict with wikis    (1M9I)
 SebastianSchaffert: and they can be used as a vehicle to open up classical hierarchies    (1M9J)
 SebastianSchaffert: good book by Clay Shirky on that issue, BTW    (1M9K)
 ChristophLange: good point!    (1M9L)
 DennyVrandecic: you can use forms with semantic mediawiki as well    (1M9C)
 DennyVrandecic: you could consider tabulator as the ultimative semantic wiki...    (1M9M)
 HaroldSolbrig: Tabulator?    (1M9N)
 DennyVrandecic:    (1M9O)
 HaroldSolbrig: thnx    (1M9P)
 DennyVrandecic: it is a rdf browser, but the newer version allows you also to edit the data    (1M9Q)
 DennyVrandecic: it mushes data from several resources    (1M9R)
 DennyVrandecic: resources -> sources    (1M9S)
 DennyVrandecic: and displays them together    (1M9T)
 ChristophLange: Denny: Does it feel like editing a document, or rather like a table/form/spreadsheet?    (1M9U)
 DennyVrandecic: table / form    (1M9V)
 DennyVrandecic:  i like the skyscrapter metaphor    (1M9W)
 SebastianSchaffert: the window "Knowledge Management" is missing    (1M9X)
 SebastianSchaffert: it's probably one of the most important application areas for wikis in general    (1M9Y)
 SebastianSchaffert: and thus also semantic wikis    (1M9Z)
 DennyVrandecic: km is not really an application... isnt every semwiki an application of km?    (1MA0)
 SebastianSchaffert: no    (1MA1)
 SebastianSchaffert: well    (1MA2)
 DennyVrandecic: ?    (1MA3)
 SebastianSchaffert: I was thinking of "Enterprise Knowledge Management"    (1MA4)
 DennyVrandecic: ah, web 2.0 brough km to the people    (1MA5)
 SebastianSchaffert: and also there are SemWikis who purely focus on RDF    (1MA6)
 SebastianSchaffert: in this line of argumentation, km was always done by people    (1MA7)
 PeterDolog: i would be interested how far your are with the meshups    (1MA8)
 PeterDolog: do you have some papers on it?    (1MA9)
 DennyVrandecic: no, sometimes it was just for suits  now it is for the people    (1MAA)
 ChristophLange: Sebastian: well, but RDF is about knowledge _representation_, so in _theory_ it's 
                 not a big step to knowledge management    (1MAB)
 SebastianSchaffert: please, no philosophical discussions    (1MAC)
 ChristophLange: Sebastian: Thanks! I must admit that my "mathematical knowledge management" has 
                 a wider view on the term    (1MAD)
 DennyVrandecic: hey, wikipedia is not a proper resource for the scientific discourse    (1MAE)
 SebastianSchaffert: denny: I object    (1MAF)
 DennyVrandecic:    (1MAG)
 SebastianSchaffert: I accept every student using wikipedia properly    (1MAH)
 SebastianSchaffert: I know, KM is rather inconsistent in itself, because knowledge is in peoples' head and 
                     not manageable by technology ...  anyways, back to the programme ...    (1MAI)
 JackPark: Did anybody suggest earlier that this group "eat its own dogfood" by putting up a semantic wiki to use?    (1MAJ)
 DennyVrandecic: i suggest    (1MAK)
 JackPark: that could work    (1MAL)
 HaroldSolbrig: My understanding is that Peter plans to "semanticize"  at least some of the ontolog we pages.    (1MAM)
 DeborahMcGuinness: we could also think of a birds of a feather impromptu meeting at iswc in karlsruhe    (1MAN)
 DennyVrandecic: sounds good    (1MAO)
 SebastianSchaffert: yes, would give an incentive to come to Karlsruhe after my workshop got rejected    (1MAP)
 DennyVrandecic: could be a lunch-bof, or just some time in the evening    (1MAQ)
 MikeBennett: Missing windows: There is also what I would call requirements management (of meanigns for data terms) 
              as a tool in development and systems integration. This fits in with model driven architecture but 
              without the assumption that everything has to be transformed automatically as some of the MDA folks 
              like to think. So basically good systems developemnt where meaning is managed at a semantics level 
              rather than in databases and things. Managed by business not techies.    (1MAR)
 DeborahMcGuinness: surprising it got rejected... i was just scanning the workshops to see if there was one on this topic    (1MAS)
 PeterYim: ALL: please enter 3 items on your wish-list for this mini-series    (1MAT)
 DennyVrandecic: usability_vs_expressivity    (1MAU)
 DeborahMcGuinness: community building    (1MAV)
 OthelRolle: e-science    (1MAX)
 JackPark: (1) uncover more implementations 
           (2) HCI:navigation of large, high-dimensional knowledge spaces 
           (3) more KR issues    (1MAZ)
 MatthiasSamwald: e-science (especially pharma research & biomedicine)    (1MB0)
 PeterDolog: 3 items on my wish list to hear: 
             (1) semantic wikis and mashups (how far you are), 
             (2) recommendation and personalization in semantic wikis, 
             (3) knowledge representation (expresivity vs. simplicity)    (1MB1)
 SebastianSchaffert: (1) application areas of semantic wikis; 
                     (2) how can semantic wikis support users in their tasks (in contrast to other kinds of technology); 
                     (3) how can semantic wikis be integrated with other applications    (1MB2)
 MikeBennett: Wish: 
              (1)  Business subject matter experts able to enter, review and validate 
                     meaningful information without having to learn any new words; 
              (2)  what dialect of OWL supported; 
              (3)  What was mentioned about ontology curation is of interest.    (1MB3)
 HaroldSolbrig: (1) integration of semantic resources (Protege / OOR / MW / ...) ; 
                (2) use cases and application ; 
                (3) unresolved issues    (1MB4)
 OthelRolle: social networking    (1MB5)
 DennyVrandecic: (1) usability_vs_expressivity, 
                 (2) content_quality, 
                 (3) integrating_external_data    (1MB6)
 SebastianSchaffert: regarding these questions, I'd also like to point you to one of 
                     the first KiWi deliverables (KiWi Vision) 
 SebastianSchaffert: I think we have already collected many ideas and insights there    (1MB8)
 ChristophLange: 1. connect knowledge engineering and social interaction, 
                 2. utilizing complex document formats in wikis, 
                 3. closed world vs. open world    (1MB9)
 DeborahMcGuinness: 1. semantic wikis for escience - particular earth and space science     
                    2.  semantic wikis as a social collaborative environment for semantically-enabled applications    (1MBA)
 PeterYim: (1) explore opportunities for collaboration; 
           (2) do a semantic wiki & OOR session 
           (3) showcase the state-of-the-art    (1MBB)
 MatthiasSamwald: usability_vs_expressivity    (1MBC)
 KenBaclawski: (1) experiences with distributed collaboration 
               (2) application to education 
               (3) integration with other tools (e.g., blogs)    (1MBD)
 Ted Bashor: Wish: (1) develop set of use cases 
                   (2) ontology management/integration challenges 
                   (3) linking wiki content to other apps    (1MBE)
 RobFrost: (1) server-side infrastructure to support semantic wikis 
           (2) survey of semantic wikis for vertical domains (e.g. HCLS) 
           (3) semantic wikis for "non-experts"    (1MBF)
 PeterYim: enter offers to be panelists please:    (1MBG)
 DennyVrandecic: denny, semantic mediawiki (core system),    (1MBH)
 SebastianSchaffert: sebastian, KiWi project and/or IkeWiki,
                     official webpage at currently redesigned but should be ready next week    (1MBI)
 HaroldSolbrig: Harold Solbrig - "BiomedGT - SMW based ontology federation and curation"    (1MBJ)
 ChristophLange: Christoph, SWiM (currently used at , general info at ), 
                 SWiM at OpenMath is a kind-of lightweight math. ontology engineering use case; 
                 will also be concerned w/ argumentative structures in discussions    (1MBK)
 HaroldSolbrig: Harold Solbrig (Guoquain Jiang) - "ICD-10 Collaborative Revision Platform for the WHO" 
       (password protected, but will be removed shortly)    (1MBL)
 DeborahMcGuinness: our main group page includes links to many of the wiki-based applications 
                    as well as links to our foundational work -    (1MBM)
 DoraiThodla: Dorai Thodla: SemanticWiki Applications - Teaching, Learning, Knowledge Sharing    (1MBN)
 PeterYim: * input from MarkMusen: I think the emphasis on "semantic wiki's" forces the discussion 
             into a small corner.  The real matter at hand is the use of Web 2.0 techniques in support 
             of ontology engineering.  Semantic wiki's are a subset of Web 2.0 approaches. 
             ... At Stanford, we believe that wiki's are much too limiting for scalable ontology development, 
             particularly when using OWL.  Web Protege casts many of the features of desktop Protege in a 
             Web 2.0 framework, and that is where we are focussing our attention.    (1MBO)
 ChristophLange: I disagree!  A semantic wiki is a whole semantic web in a sandbox    (1MBP)
 SebastianSchaffert: yes    (1MBQ)
 SebastianSchaffert: but the restriction to ontology engineering is even more narrow    (1MBR)
 DennyVrandecic: +1 to ChristophLange    (1MBS)
 DeborahMcGuinness: +1 to Mark Musen's point    (1MBT)
 SebastianSchaffert: christoph: that was one of our arguments from the beginning    (1MBU)
 SebastianSchaffert: there are two different sides to semantic wikis: semantics for wikis and wikis for semantics    (1MBV)
 DennyVrandecic: it depends what MarkMusen means with Ontology Engineering    (1MBW)
 HaroldSolbrig: The challenge is limiting the scope - Semantic Wiki -> Semantic WIki Philosophy -> Web 2.0++ . 
                The whole area is interesting, but we have to limit the scope    (1MBX)
 SebastianSchaffert: still, it indicates the goal to create an ontology    (1MBY)
 SebastianSchaffert: but Semantic Wikis might serve other goals    (1MBZ)
 HaroldSolbrig: I think a second goal is to annotate wiki content with an ontology    (1MC0)
 SebastianSchaffert: and most non-Semantic-Web-users really don't care about semantics, 
                     but they care about better software    (1MC1)
 PeterYim: ALL: please propose other panelists below:    (1MC2)
 PeterYim: * input from MarkGreaves: This is an area that I am extremely interested in -- 
             as you know, Vulcan is one of the major funders of Semantic Wiki technology worldwide, 
             and we have some very nice software. ... At any rate, please keep me in mind as 
             one of the presenters, and we can follow up by email.    (1MC3)
 HaroldSolbrig: We've used Halo in combination w/ Semantic Forms, but at one point, 
                they thought they were philosophically opposed.  I think this has since been resolved.    (1MCG)
 DennyVrandecic: YaronKoren, Semantic Forms and other extensions,    (1MC4)
 HaroldSolbrig: I'd like to see Yaron present on where they are going with Semantic Forms. Yaron?    (1MC5)
 DennyVrandecic: (since he didn't suggest himself  )    (1MC6)
 LiDing: yaron is online    (1MC7)
 SebastianSchaffert: Josef Holy, Sun Microsystems, application of Semantic Wikis in software knowledge management    (1MC8)
 YaronKoren: Hi, guys. I don't know if I can make it to this conference...    (1MC9)
 DennyVrandecic: it's a virtual conference    (1MCA)
 YaronKoren: Oh...    (1MCB)
 DennyVrandecic: not a real meeting    (1MCC)
 YaronKoren: I missed that part.    (1MCD)
 HaroldSolbrig: I'd like to get a good feeling for what Vulcan is doing and the problems they are trying to solve.    (1MCE)
 YaronKoren: Let me also suggest Markus Krotzsch, then, of Semantic MediaWiki fame.    (1MCF)
 HaroldSolbrig: Absolutely on Markus.    (1MCH)
 ChristophLange: How about MaxVoelkel and his topic sem. wikis for _personal_ knowledge mgmt?    (1MCI)
 SebastianSchaffert: blogs are essentially like wikis, just sorted by time  that's why I am using the term "wiki philosophy"    (1MCJ)
 ChristophLange: ... this chat doesn't seem to support UTF-8  ...    (1MCK)
 PeterDolog: integration with other tools is a must in the enterprise context as we also realized in the KIWI project    (1MCL)
 DennyVrandecic: i'd like to hear also from users    (1MCM)
 SebastianSchaffert: denny: that's why I suggest Josef Holy    (1MCP)
 PeterYim: if anyone has others to propose, please send the input to anyone of the co-champions or post below within the next 7-days    (1MCN)
 PeterDolog: therefore, the mashups seems to be an interesting technology    (1MCO)
 LiDing: as for blog, Jie bao has implemented a simple blog at    (1MCQ)
 ChristophLange: Sebastian: but i think blogs are used differently, from one blogger to a wide audience 
                 that may only comment (or run their own blog and link, trackback, etc.)    (1MCR)
 SebastianSchaffert: christoph: same technology, same philosophy, but different use    (1MCS)
 ChristophLange: sebastian: but because of the different use i'd call the philosophy different too -- but, well, no philosophical discussions    (1MCT)
 LiDing: privacy and access control in semantic wiki is the key to make things like blog flying in Semantic wiki    (1MCU)
 DennyVrandecic: what about someone from wikia? they are giving semantic wikis to about 800,000 potential users...    (1MCV)
 SebastianSchaffert: ah, and also dbpedia    (1MCW)
 DennyVrandecic: oh wow, that is a topic -- access control in semantic wikis. that is a huge problem for us    (1MCX)
 DoraiThodla: Is there a list of Semantic wiki or something similar to WikiMatrix for SemWikis?    (1MCY)
 ChristophLange: +1 Denny    (1MCZ)
 YaronKoren: There are various lists of SMW-using wikis...    (1MD0)
 ChristophLange: Dorai: there was once some kind of metadata ontology on, but it's not been used for a long time    (1MD1)
 DeborahMcGuinness: +many for access control    (1MD2)
 DennyVrandecic:    (1MD3)
 DoraiThodla: Thanks    (1MD4)
 DennyVrandecic: it is community-maintained though...    (1MD5)
 SebastianSchaffert: more than 5 seconds of preparation for a closing note would be a good thing    (1MD6)
 DennyVrandecic: sebastian: you're too demanding, it's a wikiwiki world    (1MD7)
 LiDing: that means we should write it together    (1MD8)
 SebastianSchaffert: so please accept my apologies for having a wiki-style closing note    (1MD9)
 DennyVrandecic: how can i edit it?    (1MDA)
 SebastianSchaffert: thanks for hosting!    (1MDB)
 DennyVrandecic: thanks!    (1MDC)
 LiDing: thanks    (1MDD)
 DoraiThodla: Thanks Peter and bye every one.    (1MDE)
 YaronKoren: Does that mean this chat has to end?    (1MDF)
 PeterDolog: thanks to all for interesting session    (1MDG)
 ChristophLange: thanks, bye!    (1MDH)
 PeterDolog: bye    (1MDI)
 DennyVrandecic: great moderation, we finished on time    (1MDJ)
 PeterYim: Thanks everyone!    (1MDK)
 MikeBennett: Thanks, bye everyone.    (1MDL)
 KenBaclawski: Thanks, bye all!    (1MDM)
 SebastianSchaffert: was very nice to see that the community gets bigger  and I hope to gain many insights here    (1MDN)
 SebastianSchaffert: thanks again to all, bye    (1MDO)
 YaronKoren: By the way, when is this virtual conference?    (1MDP)
 DennyVrandecic: undecided yet    (1MDQ)
 YaronKoren: Ah.    (1MDR)
 DennyVrandecic: it will probably be a mini-series    (1MDS)
 YaronKoren: I see.    (1MDT)
 DennyVrandecic: with a number of sessions, each with a small number of speakers    (1MDU)
 MikeBennett: Similar to the series we are doing on emerging ontology showcases.    (1MDV)
 SebastianSchaffert: nice concept - one needs to get accustomed to it but it works quite well    (1MDW)
 SebastianSchaffert: meaning that this has actually been one of the more productive telcos in my life    (1MDX)
 MikeBennett: Probably easier if you have three screens though.    (1MDY)
 SebastianSchaffert: right    (1MDZ)
 DennyVrandecic: it fits well in one if you use an IM to connect to the chat instead of the browser    (1ME0)
 SebastianSchaffert: but apple expos does the trick    (1ME1)
 YaronKoren: Sorry, will all of these mini-conferences be about ontology engineering?    (1ME2)
 DennyVrandecic: i dont hope so    (1ME3)
 DennyVrandecic: the topics will be gathered now based on the topics we listed before    (1ME4)
 YaronKoren: Oh, I see.    (1ME5)
 SebastianSchaffert: BTW: There was a question by harold on versioning of metadata 
                     - if you are also doing reasoning this is very much related 
                       to the topic of reason maintenance    (1ME6)
 SebastianSchaffert: currently not much addressed on the Semantic Web, 
                     but some work in the logic programming area    (1ME7)
 SebastianSchaffert: Jakub is investigating this    (1ME8)
 YaronKoren: There's some reasoning in SMW already, though there could be more.    (1ME9)
 YaronKoren: Type-checking, for instance.    (1MEA)
 JakubKotowski: actually, people already begun aplying reason maintenance and 
                belief revision techniques for triple store update operations    (1MEB)
 SebastianSchaffert: yes, but the problem is when doing versioning of metadata 
                     it could mean significant performance problems    (1MEC)
 SebastianSchaffert: there is quite some reasoning in IkeWiki from the very beginning    (1MED)
 SebastianSchaffert: @Jakub: didn't know that, I probably should read your deliverable ...    (1MEE)
 JakubKotowski: @Sebastian: take a look at the "Relation to RDF and OWL" part    (1MEF)
 SebastianSchaffert: I will as soon as I find a bit more time    (1MEG)
 PeterYim: Folks ... Telephone playback is now available. 
                 Audio archives (mp3) will probably be ready tomorrow. 
                 see:    (1MEH)
 SebastianSchaffert: bye, have a nice day/night/...    (1MEI)
 JakubKotowski: bye    (1MEJ)
 YaronKoren: BTW, the Ontoprise people are working on access control for SMW (SemanticMediaWiki)
             - if everyone is interested in that, it would be worth talking to them about it.    (1MEK)
 YaronKoren: Or having them talk about it.    (1MEL)
 PeterYim: ... I'll sign off now. ... thanks again, everyone. Great session!    (1MEM)
 Additional proposed panelists/topic: ... (posted after the 2008.09.18 session)    (1MMO)
 PeterYim/2008.09.24: PeterYim, KenBaclawski et al., Purple MediaWiki Extention (PMWX),    (1MMP)
 PeterYim/2008.09.24: PeterYim et al., Migrating the OntologWiki content to Purple Semantic Media Wiki, (prefer to do this towards the end of the mini-series)    (1MMQ)
 PeterYim: AdamCheyer also suggested earlier (2008.09.17): Thomas Tunsch - "National Museums in Berlin: The Semantic Web and Wikis" (ref. his previous talk) - anyone familiar with him or his work?    (1NP2)

Follow-up and Adjourn:    (1MEN)

 proceedings captured on this wiki by PeterYim / 2008.09.18-11:57am PDT
 Attendees are requested to review the notes above, help clean it up, and make amendments and edits to better 
 reflect the proceedings of the session as they see fit (particularly where they are personally involved). =ppy    (1LZ5)

Audio Recording of this Session    (1LZ6)