ppy/OntologySummit2014-s12_chat-transcript_unedited_20140403a.txt ------ Chat transcript from room: summit_20140403 2014-04-03 GMT-08:00 [PDT] ------ [9:12] PeterYim: Welcome to the = OntologySummit2014 session-12: Synthesis-II: Technical Tracks and Hackathon - Thu 2014-04-03 = Summit Theme: OntologySummit2014: "Big Data and Semantic Web Meet Applied Ontology" Session Topic: OntologySummit2014 Synthesis-II on the Technical Tracks and the Hackathon Session Co-chairs: Dr. LeoObrst and Professor MichaelGruninger Program: * Professor MichaelGruninger - "Semantic Web and Big Data Meets Applied Ontology - Thoughts on Summit 2014" * Dr. GaryBergCross, Ms. AndreaWesterinen, Mr. MikeBennett (in absentia) - Track A: Common Reusable Semantic Content - Synthesis-II * Dr. ChristophLange, Professor AlanRector (in absentia) - Track B: Making use of Ontologies: Tools, Services, and Techniques - Synthesis-II * Dr. MatthewWest, Professor PascalHitzler, Professor KrzysztofJanowicz (in absentia) - Track C: Overcoming Ontology Engineering Bottlenecks - Synthesis-II * Professor AnneThessen, Professor KenBaclawski (in absentia) - Track D: Tackling the Variety Problem in Big Data - Synthesis-II * Mr. AnatolyLevenchuk, Mr. DanBrickley - Track E: A Summary Report on the Hackathon Projects, especially on what's pertinent to the Communique * Dr. LeoObrst (moderator) - Open Discussion on ideas to optimally fit the above material into the adopted Communique outline, and the positions we want to assume in this year's communique Logistics: * Refer to details on session page at: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2014_04_03 * (if you haven't already done so) please click on "settings" (top center) and morph from "anonymous" to your RealName; also please enable "Show timestamps" while there. * Mute control (phone keypad): *7 to un-mute ... *6 to mute * Attn: Skype users ... see: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2014_04_03#nid4B66 ** you may connect to (the skypeID) "joinconference" whether or not it indicates that it is online (i.e. even if it says it is "offline," you should still be able to connect to it.) ** if you are using skype and the connection to "joinconference" is not holding up, try using (your favorite POTS or VoIP line, etc.) either your phone, skype-out or google-voice and call the US dial-in number: +1 (206) 402-0100 ... when prompted enter Conference ID: 141184# ** Can't find Skype Dial pad? *** for Windows Skype users: Can't find Skype Dial pad? ... it's under the "Call" dropdown menu as "Show Dial pad" *** for Linux Skype users: if the dialpad button is not shown in the call window you need to press the "d" hotkey to enable it * when posting in this Chat-room, kindly observe the following ... ** whenever a name is used, please use the full WikiWord name format (every time you don't, some volunteer will have to make an edit afterwards) ** always provide context (like: "[ref. JaneDoe's slide#12], I think the point about context is great" ... rather than "that's great!" as the latter would mean very little in the archives.) ** when responding to a specific individual's earlier remarks, please cite his/her full WikiWord names *and* the timestamp (in PST) of his/her post that you are responding to (e.g. "@JaneDoe [11:09] - I agree, but, ...") ** use fully qualified url's (include http:// ) without symbols (like punctuations or parentheses, etc.) right before of after that URL . == Proceedings == . [9:28] AmandaVizedom1 morphed into AmandaVizedom [9:29] anonymous morphed into CarmenChui [9:29] AlexShkotin: Hi All! [9:29] anonymous1 morphed into Siew Lam [9:32] EdBernot: Good day/night! [9:32] Gary Berg-Cross: Hello, Track A is here... [9:33] anonymous1 morphed into ConradBeaulieu [9:33] anonymous morphed into Les Morgan (@lesmorgan) [9:34] anonymous morphed into FrancescaQuattri [9:36] anonymous morphed into MarkLinehan [9:37] anonymous1 morphed into LamarHenderson [9:37] PeterYim: == MichaelGruninger starts session on behalf of the co-chairs ... see slides under: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2014_04_03#nid4B8Z [9:46] AlexShkotin: If we split ontology to theory and model. Theory can't be Big. Model can. [9:48] anonymous morphed into BobbinTeegarden [9:49] Frank Olken: Do we need to register for the face to face meeting of Ontology Summit 2014? [9:49] Gary Berg-Cross: Yes [9:49] anonymous morphed into Joanne Luciano [9:51] MatthewWest: Communique Outline: Barriers and Bottlenecks: I suggest adding opportunities for automation (a way of overcoming bottlenecks). [9:51] PeterYim: == GaryBergCross presenting on "Common Reusable Semantic Content: Synthesis-II" on behalf of the Track-A co-champions ... [9:52] MichaelGruninger: @MatthewWest [:51] yes, we should have a subsection on overcoming the bottlenecks [9:58] anonymous morphed into DominiqueMariko [9:58] anonymous1 morphed into CalvinLiu [9:59] LeoObrst: @FrankOlken [12:49]: yes, see: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2014/WorkshopRegistration. [10:00] LeoObrst: (Minus the final period). [10:00] AmandaVizedom: Slide #9 Condition 2: that "standard metadata for reuse be defined" -- is precisely the condition that the VOCREF hackathon aimed to address, by getting the foundations in place of an open-source, collaboratively developed ontology of the wide range of metadata that people may need in order to determine whether a given ontology (or other semantic resource) is reusable for their purpose. [10:00] PeterYim: == ChristophLange presenting on "Making use of Ontologies: Tools, Services, and Techniques: Synthesis-II" on behalf of the Track-B co-champions ... [10:02] Gary Berg-Cross: @Amanda 1300 comment -Great to know the hackathon will help contribute to understanding on the ontology metadata. [10:03] PeterYim: @ChristophLange - [re: slide#2] I don't think we can infer that "heavyweight approaches have failed" with "heavyweight approaches will fail" (as you verbally pronounced) [10:03] AmandaVizedom: @Gary [13:02] We hope so! [10:06] PeterYim: ^errata - @ChristophLange - [re: slide#2] I don't think we can equate "heavyweight approaches to semantic web services have failed" with "heavyweight approaches will fail ... " (as you verbally pronounced) [10:06] AndreaWesterinen: Sorry to be late. Finally got my cable modem to work for more than 5 mins. [10:07] AndreaWesterinen: @Amanda [1300] That is why I added the slide about VOCREF. Sorry that I was not online at the time. Blame Comcast :-) [10:07] TorstenHahmann: Regarding ChristophLange's "heavyweight" comment and PeterYim's correction, I would go even further: does the observation that heavyweight ontologies are currently not used really means they have failed? Maybe we just haven't found the right way of using them yet? [10:08] MarcelaVegetti: Sorry for my late join. Is there any problem with skype joinconference?I can't connect to the audio session [10:09] Gary Berg-Cross: I didn't use the phrase lightweight ontologies in the track A synthesis, but we should. [10:09] AmandaVizedom: Andrea [12:07] Gary was necessarily going very quickly & touched really only on the meta-characteristics of the hackathon approach, not so much the content; I added the comment at [13:00] just to supplement. :-) [10:09] PeterYim: @MarcelaVegetti - skype issue may be more local ... we've got plenty of skype participants online now - see: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2014_04_03#nid4B66 [10:09] PeterYim: == MatthewWest presenting on "Overcoming Ontology Engineering Bottlenecks: Synthesis-II" on behalf of the Track-C co-champions ... [10:10] PeterYim: ... on slide#3 now [10:11] MarcelaVegetti: thanks @Peter. Problem solved. I'm now connected [10:11] ChristophLange: Re @PeterYim, @TorstenHahmann about "heavyweight": OntoIOp (about which I'm biased of course because I'm involved) hopes to strike a balance between "lightweight" and "heavyweight" in that it adopts lightweight linked data principles but also enables translations across heavyweight ontology languages. [10:12] anonymous morphed into LamarHenderson [10:12] LeoObrst: @[13:07] TorstenHahmann: I think richer (heavyweight) ontologies are very useful for certain kinds of applications, but in general not for online linked-data uses, because of many issues, including the temporal cost of computing/reasoning on the fly, etc. [10:15] List of members: AleksandraSojic, AlexShkotin, AmandaVizedom, AnatolyLevenchuk, AnneThessen, BobbinTeegarden, CalvinLiu, CarmenChui, ChristiKapp, ChristophLange, ConradBeaulieu, DominiqueMariko, EdBernot, FrancescaQuattri, Frank Olken, Gary Berg-Cross, HaroldBoley, JackRing, JackRing1, Joanne Luciano, LeoObrst, Les Morgan (@lesmorgan), LianaKiff, MarcelaVegetti, MarkLinehan, MartinDavtyan, MatthewWest, MichaelGruninger, MikeDean, MikeRiben, PeterYim, Richard Martin, Siew Lam, SundayOjo, TerryLongstreth, TorstenHahmann, VictorAgroskin [10:16] JackRing: Has anyone devised an ontology regarding 'about ontologies' wherein we might find factors such as purpose, reuse, lattice, perspectives (designer, user, reused, etc.), size, degree of complexness, modularity, etc.? [10:17] JackRing: Slide 8, Test, test, test is grossly inadequate, c.f., the dismal results of software test. [10:18] PeterYim: ... on slide#10 now [10:19] TorstenHahmann: @ChristophLange and @LeoOrbst: I certainly agree: rich ontologies will not solve all linked data problems, e.g., rich ontologies are not suitable for on-the-fly reasoning (as you mentioned). But they may still have their place in the larger setting of big & linked data. For example, they can be useful as tools to integrate & generate appropriate lightweight schemas (from rich ontologies). [10:19] TorstenHahmann: As Christoph mentioned, striking the right balance is important. [10:20] AndreaWesterinen: @JackRing [13:16] I would like to evolve VOCREF into such an ontology. [10:21] PeterYim: ... on slide#12 now [10:22] PeterYim: == AnneThessen presenting on "Tackling the Variety Problem in Big Data: Synthesis-II" on behalf of the Track-D co-champions ... [10:23] AmandaVizedom: Yes, Jack [13:16], VOCREF of course doesn't cover all of this YET, after 1 weekend hackathon, but it does already cover some, and others are identified as to-do in the issue tracker, and more should be added. That's precisely where we want it to go, as Andrea said [13:20]. It is now stood up for continuing, collaborative, open-source-style development. [10:23] Gary Berg-Cross: @matthew On this "The first priority is identity (same name same thing) not semantics" Do we have the same things without semantics? [10:25] FrancescaQuattri: why are ontologies in English? (from Matthew's slide). This opens up a huge market / demand for reusability of ontologies as developed into other languages other than English, and highlights the point of translation reliability / bottlenecks in translation of ontologies. Should we maybe also introduce this point along the other items under "bottlenecks"/ "challenges"? [10:27] FrancescaQuattri: errata corrige: present the topic as "challenge", since it has already highlighted under "bottlenecks" [10:28] AlexShkotin: We have ontology in English and Russian with equivalentClasses for terms - it works:-) [10:29] Gary Berg-Cross: On this english term issue, it is worth noting that Wikipedia has separate versions by language and they are not translations, but populated by native speakers. Hence DBpedias from these may vary... [10:30] MatthewWest: @Gary - Some of my friends talk about "a list of famous names". At the base level, you don't even have definitions of terms, which can lead to ambiguity. So a set of terms with text definitions (intended interpretations) is actually quite useful. [10:31] AmandaVizedom: @Gary Berg-Cross [13:29] One of Wikidata's goals is to create more content reusability across the language-specific Wikipedias by additing aontology-like conceptual structures with multilingual lexification. [10:32] MatthewWest: @Francesca: Actually I think there is an opportunity for an ontology module that supports name/language pair sets for IDs. [10:33] JackRing: Slide 4. More than pattern matching, pattern discovery (even if not looking for 'it') [10:33] PeterYim: == AnatolyLevenchuk presenting a Summary Report on the OntologySummit2014 Hackathon on behalf of the Track-E co-champions and the Hackathon Project Leads ... [10:34] Gary Berg-Cross: @ Matthew, the term with text discussion sound like something to establish an informal conceptual space, but people involved in this exchange have some interpretation using their internal semantics. What I take it you mean is no attempt at formal semantics. [10:34] AndreaWesterinen: @AlexShkotin and @FrancescaQuattri [13:25] Is it necessary to have 2 ontologies or 1 ontology with labels, comments, etc. in different xml:langs? I would prefer the latter since you don't want disconnects. [10:34] AndreaWesterinen: @MatthewWest [13:12] +1 [10:36] FrancescaQuattri: @Andrea and @Matthew: Andrea, I agree, the second options sounds definitely more appealing. Then a big issue to highlight in our Summary also relates to translation reliability. [10:39] AlexShkotin: @AndreaWesterinen labels are not a part of logic. We use terms native for natural language and use OWL2 operations to describe relationships. It's good for us as we have bi-langual dictionary. [10:39] LeoObrst: @FrancescaQuattri and others: I think you will always need vocabularies linked to ontologies, with the vocabularies in possibly distinct languages (locally, these can be distinct labels in the ontologies), but we must take care not to introduce another source of discrepancy/non-reusability by focusing on the natural languages of ontologies, since really it is the logic of the latter that is important. [10:40] AndreaWesterinen: @FrancescaQuattri [13:36] Yes, I have some experience with this ... adding a Spanish translation to an ontology. So, had translations only in an ontology file that built on the original definitions. All triples were loaded into the database and queries assumed that a language was set and passed this as input in each query. So, it really didn't matter what language was used to define the original as long as you had a native speaker to do the translation. Similar to any localization project. [10:41] AmandaVizedom: Francesca & all: I think there are two issues which should be separated, here. (1) is the language, if any, in which the concepts in the ontology are lexified and annotated. This is the easy part, really, because any concept can have annotations and lexificiation in arbitrarily many languages, and languages can be selected for view/use. (2) is the language, if any, in which concepts in the ontology are *named*. If developers rely on concept *names* for human readable (perhaps because of tool limitations), then one language will dominate, and it is harder to make the ontology as usable in another language. [10:41] AndreaWesterinen: The problem then comes down to MT. [10:42] AndreaWesterinen: @AmandaVizedom [13:41] I am not sure that I agree. The issue is tooling and MT. If everything comes down to documentation and metadata, the original ontology language does not matter. SMOT (simple matter of tooling) :-) [10:42] SimonSpero: SKOS mapping relations arrived via many decades of prior art, not all of which was ignored [10:44] AmandaVizedom: {continuing my [13:41])... I have worked with one project that very successfully used a very large ontology with developers / users in multiple languages & localizations. This was successful and made original language not so relevant, because the project also used hexadec concept IDs (making it impossible to rely on names, rather than labels) and had in-house built tools, for devs and users, that showed ID with label in lang-loc of choice. [10:47] AmandaVizedom: Andrea [13:42} I agree about tools. The tools mentioned in my [13:44] enabled making issue (2) [13:41], the original language, irrelevant. That's not so easy to do with standard tools/methods. [10:49] AlexShkotin: @AmandaVizedom, have a look at our bi-lingual ontology http://earth.jscc.ru/webprotege/#dic [10:51] TillMossakowski: Ontohub hackathon: we did mainly different bugfixes [10:51] TillMossakowski: These bugfixes were mainly related to the integration of git repositories and the web portal [10:53] PeterYim: see links to Hackathon details under: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2014_04_03#nid4BEE [10:54] FrancescaQuattri: @Amanda: any chance to know more about the project mentioned above? [10:57] PeterYim: == Open Discussion on ideas to optimally fit the above material into the adopted Communique outline, and the positions we want to assume in this year's communique ... [10:57] List of members: AleksandraSojic, AlexShkotin, AmandaVizedom, AnatolyLevenchuk, AndreaWesterinen, AnneThessen, anonymous, BobbinTeegarden, CarmenChui, ChristiKapp, ChristophLange, ConradBeaulieu, DennisPierson, DominiqueMariko, EdBernot, FrancescaQuattri, Frank Olken, Gary Berg-Cross, HaroldBoley, LeoObrst, Les Morgan (@lesmorgan), LianaKiff, MarcelaVegetti, MarkLinehan, MartinDavtyan, MatthewWest, MichaelGruninger, MikeDean, MikeRiben, NancyWiegand, PeterYim, Richard Martin, Siew Lam, SundayOjo, TerryLongstreth, TillMossakowski, TorstenHahmann, VictorAgroskin [10:58] AmandaVizedom: Frances, Yes and No. It was proprietary, though some aspects are not unique to them and are more publicly known within the relevant technology communities. It was for Convera, which no longer exists. The core tech and team are now part of Vertical Search Works. They have published some descriptions of the approach, with most depth in the areas where they have patented their particular take on (part of) the process. [10:59] anonymous1 morphed into LamarHenderson [10:59] Gary Berg-Cross: Under 'Sharable and Reusable Ontologies' we might include some examples of Best Practices. [11:00] PeterYim: @ALL Hackathon Leads - if you are planning to do a demo during the OntologySummit2014_Symposium, please let the symposium organizers know, and make sure you take a look at: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?VirtualSpeakerSessionTips#nid3IUY ... and prepare accordingly [11:00] FrancescaQuattri: @Amanda: thank you for the info [11:01] Gary Berg-Cross: The outline has no sub-topic of things like use of ODPs or lightweight ontologies. [11:02] Gary Berg-Cross: Sure... [11:03] TerryLongstreth: @Amanda- followup on your dialogue with Francesca at 13:54 - Did you discover developers memorizing the x' labels, expecting their referents to be invariant? [11:10] PeterYim: I have a feeling we are not addressing current "Big Data" practitioners, who could be data analytics people, adequately ... we almost haven't had a chance to see, for example, any case where an application that applied both mathematical models and semantic models, or the former taking advantage of the latter [11:11] TerryLongstreth: @Andrea - how do we validate the equivalence of semantics captured by different syntaxes? [11:13] AndreaWesterinen: @GaryBerg-Cross [13:59] We have some (very few) examples of suggestions and best practices in our Track A synthesis, but we certainly could do more. Also, we could make this a work item in the IAOA SIG. [11:13] Gary Berg-Cross: In terms of things I heard today to include in the communique I would suggest we include the point that Track C (Matthew) made about addressing the level of semantics needed by various types of Application Domains. [11:14] MartinDavtyan: @PeterYim, absolutely agree! There are some cases in Big Data practice which LOOK like ontology engineering, for example Graphical Models for genes, which are reused and shared and collaboratively created just like ontologies. I've spent a lot of time trying to research this exact problem and still searching. [11:14] AlexShkotin: @TerryLongstreth, It may be something like translation http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/agbkb/forschung/formal_methods/CoFI/hets/index_e.htm [11:15] Gary Berg-Cross: @Peter [14:10] I agree that we haven't addressed Big Data issues directly enough with enough examples. [11:15] AndreaWesterinen: @TerryLongstreth [14:11] I think that this is another function of tooling and testing. But, today, it is manual and just like guaranteeing that you have the right language translation. However, this would be a great topic to explore further. Could you do similarity analysis, etc.? I think so ... kind of like concept mapping. [11:15] AmandaVizedom: @Terry, no. But even the normal way of viewing the ontology while coding would show you both hex ID and label (in selected language) and sometimes the label in that language for an approapriate parent, where the label is also a label for other concepts in that langugae. So, for example, in en-us, you might see a node as "gen.00BT7(Dog(Mammal))" <-- made up example, I have no idea what the ID is for that concept in that ontology. [11:15] AnneThessen: I am still here [11:15] AnneThessen: Please capture that in the chat. I had to leave to get some water and I missed some of that. [11:15] AmandaVizedom: Sorry, my [14:15] is in response to Terry's [14:03] [11:15] AnneThessen: I need to not talk anymore. My voice is about gone. [11:17] LeoObrst: There is an emerging "buzz" term called "deep learning" which addresses the interpretations behind big data, i.e., correlations and patterns, and these must include knowledge-based methods and ontologies, because of causal and explanation needs. Maybe Track D would contribute some input on this, if they consider it important. [11:17] PeterYim: @ALL: as announced by our Symposium co-chairs, Dr. Ram Sriram & Professor TimFinin our Apr 28~29 Symposium (at NSF in Greater Washington DC) is now open for registration. Please register yourself ASAP, as capacity is limited - see OntologySummit2014_Symposium details at: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2014_Symposium ... Note the Apr-4 (5pm ET) deadline for reserving blocked hotel rooms for the Ontology Summit Symposium at the group pricing - ref. details under: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2014/WorkshopRegistration#nid49ZL ... Register for the Symposium NOW, if you haven't already! - see: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2014/WorkshopRegistration [11:19] Gary Berg-Cross: Hackathons can illustrate practices, tools and how one uses ontologies. [11:20] DominiqueMariko: @PeterYim I started reading this today, don't know if it could be of any help : logistic regression model for predicting the singleton/coreferent distinction, drawing on linguistic insights about how discourse entity lifespans are affected by syntactic and semantic features : http://nlp.stanford.edu/pubs/discourse-referent-lifespans.pdf [11:21] DominiqueMariko: Don't have the audio plug-sorry [11:21] AnatolyLevenchuk: @Gary: many Hackathon project not finished yet! Not only final reporting but actual work! But we already have valuable observation in Hackathon project content. [11:23] AndreaWesterinen: I would encourage everyone to read the Track A synthesis and suggest where we should expand the topics and examples. I will update to bring in the dialog on the "reuseful" email which is getting lots of good discussion. [11:24] Gary Berg-Cross: Track A synthesis at http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2014_Common_Reusable_Semantic_Content_Synthesis [11:26] PeterYim: @DominiqueMariko - thank you for the input ... would be great if you can capture that and/or additional thoughts to the page at: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2014_Tackling_Variety_In_BigData_CommunityInput [11:26] PeterYim: @ALL: Please mark your calendars and reserve this same time for the next two Thursdays, when we will be working on getting the OntologySummit2014_Communique reviewed and finalized during those two virtual sessions. In particular ... Session-13 will be up next Thursday - 2014_04_10 - Thursday: OntologySummit2014: session-13: Communique Review - Session Co-chairs: MichaelGruninger & LeoObrst - Panelists: All Contributing Editors - ref. developing details at: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2014_04_10 and http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2014_Communique/Draft [11:27] PeterYim: @org-comm members, Reminder to those in the organizing committee, our next meeting (n.10) is coming up tomorrow - Fri 2014.04.04 - see: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2014/GettingOrganized#nid4ANC [11:27] PeterYim: Very productive session ... thank you ALL! [11:27] PeterYim: -- session ended: 11:24 am PDT -- [11:27] EdBernot: Great session, thanks! [11:28] LeoObrst: Thanks, all! [11:28] DominiqueMariko: @PeterYim OK. Thanks all! [11:28] List of attendees: AleksandraSojic, AlexShkotin, AmandaVizedom, AmandaVizedom1, AnatolyLevenchuk, AndreaWesterinen, AndreaWesterinen1, AndreaWesterinen2, AnneThessen, BobbinTeegarden, CalvinLiu, CarmenChui, ChristiKapp, ChristophLange, ConradBeaulieu, DennisPierson, DominiqueMariko, EdBernot, FrancescaQuattri, Frank Olken, Gary Berg-Cross, HaroldBoley, JackRing, JackRing1, Joanne Luciano, KenBaclawski, LamarHenderson, LeoObrst, Les Morgan (@lesmorgan), LianaKiff, MarcelaVegetti, MariaHerrero, MarkLinehan, MartinDavtyan, MatthewWest, MichaelGruninger, MikeDean, MikeRiben, NancyWiegand, PeterYim, Ram D. Sriram, Richard Martin, Siew Lam, SimonSpero, SundayOjo, TerryLongstreth, TillMossakowski, TillMossakowski1, TillMossakowski2, TillMossakowski3, TillMossakowski4, TorstenHahmann, VictorAgroskin, anonymous, anonymous1, vnc2 ------