mbennett/ppy/OntologySummit2013_hc-03_chat-transcript_unedited_20130413a.txt ------ Chat transcript from room: hc-03 2013-04-13 GMT-08:00 [PDT] ------ [(0412)20:11] PeterYim: Welcome to the = OntologySummit2013 Hackathon & Clinics Activities - Day-3 - Sat 2013.03.13 = Connections: Main Chat-room (ALL Projects): http://webconf.soaphub.org/conf/room/summit_hackathon see master schedule: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2013_Hackathon_Clinics#nid3PGL . == Project: HC-03. Evaluation of OOPS!, OQuaRE and Other Tools for FIBO Ontologies == Project homepage: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2013_Hackathon_Clinics_FIBO_OOPS_OQuaRE Project chat-room (up when in session): http://webconf.soaphub.org/conf/room/hc-03 * Activities will be in session: ** starting from: Sat 2013.04.13 - 6:00am PDT / 9:00am EDT / 2:00pm BST / 3:00pm CEST / 13:00 UTC ** Open webcast segment - supported in the first 1 Hr. 45 min. * primary project contact: MikeBennett . Dial-in: Phone (US): +1 (206) 402-0100 ... Conference ID: 141184# ; or Skype: joinconference ... Conference ID: 141184# . Logistics: * (if you haven't already done so) please click on "settings" (top center) and morph from "anonymous" to your RealName (in WikiWord format) * Mute control: *7 to un-mute ... *6 to mute * Can't find Skype Dial pad? ** for Windows Skype users: it may be under the "Call" dropdown menu as "Show Dial pad" ** for Linux Skype users: please note that the dial-pad is only available on v4.1 (or later or the earlier Skype versions 2.x,) if the dialpad button is not shown in the call window you need to press the "d" hotkey to enable it. * Note: ... it has come to our attention that our conference bridge provider is running into some problems with the "joinconference" skype connections. In case anyone gets in trouble, please try to call the phone numbers instead (e.g. from your phone, skype-out, google-voice, etc.) . == Proceedings: == [1:53] anonymous morphed into Max Gillmore [5:33] anonymous morphed into Kevin Tyson [5:55] PeterYim: . == Attn: ALL .. the HC-03 Evaluation of OOPS!, OQuaRE and Other Tools for FIBO Ontologies - "open webcast segment" will be starting in about 5 minutes Dial-in: Phone (US): +1 (206) 402-0100 ... Conference ID: 141184# ; or Skype: joinconference ... Conference ID: 141184# . [5:59] PeterYim: @Kevin Tyson, @Max Gillmore - please join us on the voice call (see dial-in info above) [6:00] PeterYim: ref. the HC-03 project page at: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2013_Hackathon_Clinics_FIBO_OOPS_OQuaRE [6:02] anonymous morphed into MikeBennett [6:04] anonymous morphed into Bill Freeman [6:04] MikeBennett: https://www4.gotomeeting.com/join/141137871 [6:15] PeterYim: == MikeBennett kicked-off the session with a presentation (on GotoMeeting) of the slides: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/work/OntologySummit2013/Hackathon-Clinics/HC-03_FIBO-OOPS-OQuaRE-Evaluation/HC-03_FIBO-OOPS-OQuaRE_20130413c.pdf [6:23] List of members: AmandaVizedom, AstridDuqueRamos, Bill Freeman, Bob Smith, FrancescaQuattri, Jacobus Geluk, Kevin Tyson, Max Gillmore, MariaPovedaVillalon, MikeBennett, MikeDean, PeterYim [6:24] AmandaVizedom: @Mike, those names flew by very quickly - would you say again who is here from FIBO community? Thanks! [6:25] AmandaVizedom: Nevermind - intros will cover it. :-) [6:27] Max Gillmore: Max Gillmore I appear to have lost audio [6:28] AmandaVizedom: Max, I can still here; may be on your end? [6:28] AmandaVizedom: *hear, that is. [6:30] SamirTartir: Thanks [6:31] Jacobus Geluk1 morphed into Jacobus Geluk [6:35] List of members: AmandaVizedom, AstridDuqueRamos, Bill Freeman, Bill Freeman1, Bob Smith, FrancescaQuattri, Jacobus Geluk, Kevin Tyson, Max Gillmore, MariaPovedaVillalon, MikeBennett, MikeDean, PeterYim, SamirTartir [6:48] SamirTartir: My slides on OntoQA from the Jan/31 session [6:48] SamirTartir: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/work/OntologySummit2013/2013-01-31_OntologySummit2013_OntologyEvaluation-IntrinsicAspects/OntologySummit2013_OntoQA--SamirTartir-IsmailcemBudakArpinar-AmitSheth_20130131.pdf [6:50] MariaPovedaVillalon: could you please paste that google doc's url here? can't find it :-( [6:50] SamirTartir: Here you go: [6:50] SamirTartir: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ErbZV0IFj890lHFcnygsw6n93dxub1AamOu9oBnHdOo/edit [6:51] SamirTartir: This is the one on OQuaRE [6:51] MariaPovedaVillalon: thank you [6:52] AmandaVizedom: OQuaRE wiki -- Operability definitions: http://miuras.inf.um.es/oquarewiki/index.php5/Main_Page#Operability [6:55] SamirTartir: Yep [7:03] AstridDuqueRamos: @Amanda, I would like to know what you exactly said about the definitions. [7:03] AstridDuqueRamos: in Operability. [7:04] AmandaVizedom: @Astrid, I think I said something like this: OQuaRE's model seems to cover such considerations, but not necessarily have metrics for them. Looking on OQuare Wiki, at definitions of Operability considerations. Note that there are no associated metrics for some of these. So they are acknowledged and accounted for, but not evaluated directly be the tool at this time. [7:05] Kevin Tyson: @Amanda, what measures exist for the operability qualities, regardless of being implemented in the tool. From their definitions it looks like they'd be a useful subject of sentiment analysis [7:06] AmandaVizedom: By the way, I think that's an excellent approach (even if perhaps it could be clearer in description). It is good to provide an inventory, usable as a checklist or other workflow guide, of the characteristics that should be evaluated, and have the machine-evaluatable characteristics as a subset of those... [7:07] AstridDuqueRamos: Operability has currently, metrics only for learneability [7:08] AstridDuqueRamos: which are a combination of the WMCOnto, LCOMOnto, RFCOnto, NOMOnto,CBOnto, NOCOnto [7:10] AstridDuqueRamos: @Amanda you are right, the definitions are based on the software standard, but a better description must to be make for Business ontology experts [7:10] SamirTartir: @Astrid & @Amanda: I think we were also considering if we could include some of the OntoQA metrics in OquaRE to enhance this [7:10] AmandaVizedom: I imagine that an extremely useful tool might enable evaluators to use this to guide and organize their evaluations overall. They could be given the inventory of characteristics and push-button access to the machine evaluation. They could also be given descriptive support and helpful references for the manual evaluation characteristics, and places to document what such evaluations the do and what the results are, so that they generate a mixed-source, more complete evaluation and can see what hasn't been done and perhaps should be. [7:10] SamirTartir: by "we" I mean "Astrid" and myself [7:11] Jacobus Geluk: It would be great if all use cases / user stories could be expressed as SPARQL statements that we could then run against the FIBO ontologies on a continous basis (Continuous Integration) during their full development life cycle. [7:12] Bill Freeman: Doesn't the difference between conceptual and operational make a huge difference in metrics. Once FIBO is put into OWL, skos, etc..., it becomes operational by definition [7:13] AstridDuqueRamos: @ Amanda & Samir. The idea is to select those metrics useful for FIBO and then redefine it in terms of Business Ontologies, then, for those selected subcharacteristics, to include the OtoQA, OOPs, an the rest of the metrics that could be apply to measure the defined criterias or subcharacteristics [7:13] AmandaVizedom: Kevin, I want to answer that Q but I don't have a short-form answer ready-to-hand (yet), so it would be too long and involved to let me pay attention to Mike right now. Some such information is being gathered in main summit work, in the outputs work following up the "ontology of ontology evaluation" hackathon, and in the expanded gathering that will continue from that. [7:14] MariaPovedaVillalon3 morphed into MariaPovedaVillalon [7:17] AmandaVizedom: @Bill, Yes. This is one reason why it is useful to distinguish between the full set of characteristics that might be relevant to any ontology and those that should be evaluated to establish quality/suitability of a specific ontology for a specific use. It is also a good reason to distinguish such characteristics the metrics and measures that can be used to evaluate them, which will vary with type of ontology and available resources. This fits with Astrid's idea of selecting appropriate characteristics and then figure out how they can be evaluated for business ontologies. [7:19] Bill Freeman1: I agree, not sure Mike has articulated this, just as Jacobus just did [7:21] Bill Freeman1: I think Kevin had the same point, but it went by . Kevin, you may want to re-introduce your question (-: [7:21] MariaPovedaVillalon: can you write here a link to that tool about sparql queries you are talking about? [7:22] AmandaVizedom: @Jacobus, this also discussed in the summit presentation by Gavin Matthews. Not specific to a specific language, either. The process Gavin discusses is using an in-house ontology language and the development environment version of the operational system into which the ontology will be deployed. Unit test and regression test are also run on Cyc before major builds and can be run on-demand during development. [7:22] Kevin Tyson: I must drop off. I will return ASAP [7:24] AmandaVizedom: I strongly advocate this kind of engineering discipline for ontologies in general. More work is needed to make it easier for those not able to build extensive in-house infrastructure, and to provide guidance for doing it, with whatever mix of tools. [This is a driving interest for me currently.] [7:30] AstridDuqueRamos: yes amanda, we have a provisional tool for applying OQuaRE, but the idea is to make a more complet tool. http://miuras.inf.um.es:9080/oquareapp/ [7:32] AmandaVizedom: @Astrid, excellent! I'll have a look at that. [7:34] AstridDuqueRamos: it works with owl ontologies [7:35] SamirTartir: It is 5:30PM in Jordan [7:35] MariaPovedaVillalon: 16:35 in Paris [7:35] AstridDuqueRamos: It is 4:30 in Spain [7:36] MariaPovedaVillalon: @astrid it does not show any result for me [7:36] SamirTartir: @Astrid: I have gone through the G Doc and couldn't find the sub-char's that you added OntoQA metrics. [7:36] SamirTartir: Can you tell me? [7:38] AstridDuqueRamos: @Samir, in order to add the metrics in the same language, we added Onto to de metrics, then your metrics are RROnto, ANOnto, [7:39] AstridDuqueRamos: which has been used for example in: Formal relations support RROnto. your Relationship Richness [7:40] AstridDuqueRamos: Maria, I think you can include your OOPS metrics in those quality subcharacteristics [7:42] Jacobus Geluk: For the Jena location mapping file, here is the documentation: http://jena.sourceforge.net/how-to/filemanager.html [7:43] MariaPovedaVillalon: @astrid, do you mean in the google doc? I'm a bit lost [7:43] Jacobus Geluk: This works in Protege and any other Jena based app [7:43] MariaPovedaVillalon: thank @jacobus [7:45] SamirTartir: @Astrid: Excellent. Thanks [7:46] Bill Freeman1: mike Dean, you have writen these, can you show an example ? [7:47] AstridDuqueRamos: @Samir, the idea is you could review the subcharacteristics and include your metrics in those subcharacteristics that them apply [7:50] PeterYim: == the HC-03 "(Kick-off) open webcast segment" has now adjourned. ... this group will resume in 12 minutes, in this chat-room and on GoToMeeting: https://www4.gotomeeting.com/join/141137871 [7:52] AstridDuqueRamos: @Maria, Yes, the idea is that you make a review of the sub-characteristics and include your metrics, OOPS pitfalls, in those sub-characteristics that them could be apply [7:57] MariaPovedaVillalon: ok, cool, now I get it. I guess it is not part of today's task and we (OOPS team) proceed during next week for example? [7:57] MariaPovedaVillalon: I'm a bit busy today [7:57] MariaPovedaVillalon: :S [8:00] List of attendees: AmandaVizedom, AstridDuqueRamos, Bill Freeman, Bob Smith, FrancescaQuattri, Jacobus Geluk, Kevin Tyson, Max Gillmore, MariaPovedaVillalon, MikeBennett, MikeDean, PeterYim, SamirTartir, SimonSpero, ToddSchneider, anonymous [8:00] Sent transcript to: ppy@cim.us [8:02] MikeBennett uploaded file: FIBO-Foundations.zip [8:04] MariaPovedaVillalon: @Mike I'm not sure about how would my output look like [8:04] MikeBennett: Reconvening now at the GoToMeeting voice and screen [8:04] MariaPovedaVillalon: @Mike I'm not sure about how would my output look like [8:04] MikeBennett: Reconvening now at the GoToMeeting voice and screen [8:10] SamirTartir: I can't hear anything [8:16] AstridDuqueRamos: @Samir, are you listen now? [8:18] MikeBennett uploaded file: SpecificationMetadata.owl [8:19] SamirTartir: I am ok now. [8:19] SamirTartir: GoToMeeting settings [8:42] Jacobus Geluk: Mike, is the FIBO-Foundations.zip file the complete collection of FIBO ontologies? [8:52] Bob Smith: @Mike - much earlier in these discussions, Barry Smith described his take on "real" stuff. Does FIBO address physical property such as buildings and the building lifecycle? [8:53] Bob Smith: @Mike - in conversations with Biz Analysts, Ontologists, State Insurance Commissioners, and Lawyers...would 3D and 4D models of proposed or actual buildings be useful in reducing ambiguity in discussing risk management? [9:01] SimonSpero: inverse properties are mildly deprecated now [9:01] Jacobus Geluk: @MikeBennett I just uploaded the fibo-yowl.zip file, which contains the output of the YOWL tool that I ran accross the FIBO ontologies. You can extract the zip file to a local directory and open the index.html file to see the result. It contains class diagrams. Since your ontologies do not contain any individuals the YOWL too does not generate any individual diagrams though. [9:01] Jacobus Geluk uploaded file: fibo-yowl.zip [9:02] SimonSpero: OWL2 [9:07] SimonSpero: Every relation does have an inverse in OWL2 [9:08] SimonSpero: E.g. ObjectInverseOf [9:08] SimonSpero: What you can do is give them names [9:36] Jacobus Geluk: @MariaPovedaVillalon it would be very good if the oops-tool could be made available as a war file that we can run in our own private network. Kevin Tyson also asked this question. Many companies that work with their own models and ontologies are not allowed to send out these models to an external service. But you would also like to have this available as part of a continuous integration (CI) process where people can look at the output of Oops after every commit to the repository (if something like git/github or subversion or so is being used, which is normally the case in banks etc) [9:39] MikeBennett: Wondering why the Contract Terms Set propert is not suggested as a transitive property by Pitfall P24 [9:50] MariaPovedaVillalon uploaded file: FIBO_Merged.owl [9:51] MariaPovedaVillalon uploaded file: FIBO_General.owl [9:51] MariaPovedaVillalon: @Jacobus, right, the code is now being analyzed to see whether we can make it open source [9:52] MariaPovedaVillalon: anyway you can always contact me and I can send the war [9:52] MariaPovedaVillalon: the bad point is that once I change the code your installation would be out of date [9:52] MariaPovedaVillalon: in case it helps: OOPS! does not keep any code of the ontologies being analyzed [9:53] MariaPovedaVillalon: but I totally understand your point [9:58] Jacobus Geluk: @MariaPovedaVillalon well if I can get the war file to test it on my company's server then that would be great. I can give you feedback about it in return :-) [9:59] Jacobus Geluk: By the way, your mike is still open :-) [10:01] MikeBennett: OK we're back [10:02] SimonSpero: Maria: What about putting the source on github? [10:02] MariaPovedaVillalon: we are analyzing the licences [10:03] MariaPovedaVillalon: and then we will make a decision [10:03] MariaPovedaVillalon: for me it would be just to put in github but I'm afraid it is not just my decision [10:05] MariaPovedaVillalon: @Mike, I'm now swapping to the other project, that was perfect timing to handle both participations. I'll be in goToMeeting having a look until I finally drop off [10:07] SamirTartir uploaded file: FIBO-OntoQA.xlsx [10:08] SamirTartir: I just ran OntoQA against FIBO-Merged (thanks @Maria), and uploaded the results [10:10] MariaPovedaVillalon: @Samir is your system available via API/Web service? [10:11] MariaPovedaVillalon: something that I can call from OOPS! or other system? [10:21] MariaPovedaVillalon: @Astrid, just a little remark about usability, you can change the bullets (now they are squares) in the results and used and X in addition of green and red (it would help color blind people understanding the results) [10:22] MariaPovedaVillalon: I mean the tick symbol.. and the cross [10:37] SimonSpero: Apropos the previous session, with the not-classes with semicolons in the name - they come from the definition Party in Agreements/Parties [10:37] SimonSpero: (was looking for something else :-) [10:46] derek lasalle: simple question: the class names have instances of recursion e.g. agreements/agreements/... is this in error or meaningful? [10:54] MikeBennett: The first part of that string is a package name which is reflected in the nsmespace. However, I've tried to make those unique and in this case fialed to do so - so this should be changed. [10:56] MariaPovedaVillalon12: I have to drop off, please do not hesitate to contact me for integrating our approaches, we can also have an skype meeting [10:58] MariaPovedaVillalon12: @Jacobus, keep in touch to sort out the .war for your company this week [11:07] PeterYim: @MikeBennett and All - how are you guys doing? [11:41] AstridDuqueRamos: Hi Petter. Mike says: We are doing well, we are getting into some deep conversations. Probably take a break soon or consider whether to reconvene. [11:43] AstridDuqueRamos: @Peter there a discusion about quality criteria [11:49] MikeBennett: We have adjourned for today. We will work asynchronously on the spreadsheet between now and tomorrow. [11:49] MikeBennett: Then tomorrow we reconvene 2 hours later than we did today. That is 11am Eastern / 8am Pacific etc. [11:49] PeterYim: Good for you all ... looks like some very nice work got done today! [11:52] MikeBennett: Thanks everybody for your input today - we had some really great input from everybody. [11:55] PeterYim: @Mike - do you need the conference bridge for tomorrow, or are you resuming with the GoToMeeting setup tomorrow? [11:56] MikeBennett: We are OK with GoToMeeting thanks - unless you want us to be on the bridge? [11:57] PeterYim: @Mike - I won't be able to join you tomorrow, but have fun! Remember to send transcripts. ... If you want me to post the audio on the archives, please send them to me too. [11:58] PeterYim: bye (for now) ... thank you for putting this together, Mike! [11:50] List of attendees: MikeBennett (champion), AmandaVizedom, AstridDuqueRamos, Bill Freeman, Bob Smith, Derek Lasalle, FrancescaQuattri, Jacobus Geluk, Kevin Tyson, Max Gillmore, MariaPovedaVillalon, MikeDean, PeterYim, SamirTartir, SimonSpero, ToddSchneider, anonymous, ======