ppy/OntologySummit2011_prelaunch_chat-transcript_20101216a_unedited.txt PeterYim: . Welcome to the OntologySummit2011 (Pre-launch) Community Input and Planning Session - Thu 2010-12-16 * Topic: Refining the ideas around theme and program for OntologySummit2011: "Making the Case for Ontology" * Co-chair: Dr. SteveRay & Dr. NicolaGuarino * see details on session page at: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2010_12_16 . anonymous morphed into JimDisbrow anonymous morphed into JimRhyne anonymous1 morphed into GerryRadack anonymous morphed into NancyWiegand anonymous morphed into RexBrooks Matthew West morphed into MatthewWest NicolaGuarino2 morphed into NicolaGuarino1 anonymous2 morphed into Michael Uschold ToddSchneider: Need to add some items to 'themes' that represent the enterprise architectural approach and how ontologies and semantic technologies fit into the larger picture. NicolaGuarino1 morphed into NicolaGuarino anonymous2 morphed into Ramdsriram anonymous2 morphed into Ralph Hodgson ToddSchneider: April is so far in advance, sure it sounds good. PeterYim: Steve: how does the week of April 18, 2011 work ... as a potential time for our OntologySummit2011 symposium (the final 2-day face-to-face workshop) Ralph Hodgson: ISWSA 2011, Amman, Jordan - http://www.wikicfp.com/cfp/servlet/event.showcfp?eventid=11367©ownerid=15408 Ralph Hodgson: http://iswsa.ipu.edu.jo/index.php?c=cfp.htm NicolaGuarino: There is also IAOA as co-organizer... ToddSchneider: So, who's traveling to Jordan in April? ToddSchneider: Steve, can we get a video link running from NIST? Ralph Hodgson: I only found one more event that conflicts: BioPAX - http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/biopax/index.php?title=Main_Page ToddSchneider: In addition to a communique, we should consider providing a place where people could find case studies and success stories (subject to the Ontolog IPR policy). NicolaGuarino: Theme 1: commercial or societal need... PeterYim: @Nicola - my apologies for inadvertently leaving out IAOA on the slides ... the slide deck has now been updated (to reflect the correction) ToddSchneider: Also have to address how ontologies fit into the bigger picture: How to use them. NicolaGuarino: @Todd: yes, bur first we have to show the importance of them... GaryBergCross: I find the "benefits" a bit commercially focused. This is clearly important but there ToddSchneider: The value or importance will depend on how they are used. GaryBergCross: are other communities that can profit from use in R&D for example. Perhaps it is the focus on practical use that leads in this direction. Ralph Hodgson: Ontologies as specification models, as inferencing systems for classification, as basis for model-based reasoning, as process orchestration engines, as vocabulary management systems, ... SteveRay: @Todd: I'll raise your request for a NIST video link to our NIST hosts. ToddSchneider: Ralph has just enumerated many of the tracks. Or at least the various aspects that should be addressed. Ralph Hodgson: Use of ontologies at BBC for the Worldcup 2010 was onotologies as flexible data model + aggregation capabilities of RDF/OWL SteveRay: @Gary: I think there is room when defining metrics for including research value as well as commercial considerations. ToddSchneider: Nicola, the scaling problem involves more than just particular technologies. But how they are used. PeterYim: Nicola: "Scaling" issues could be one that is of interest ... and is being given attention in Europe ToddSchneider: Ralph, would TopQuadrant be able to provide some case studies? Ralph Hodgson: Yes LeoObrst: Electronic commerce is another application domain. Many starts in this area, recently GoodRelations. SteveRay: So I'm hearing we might want to have a track identifying all the different kinds of application classes GaryBergCross: The categories are not mutual exclusive. So sociotechnical systems describe an approach to complex organizational work design that recognizes the interaction between people and technology in workplaces. Health care has lots of such interactions. ToddSchneider: Steve, identifying all application classes may not be beneficial. Most domains can benefit. RexBrooks: Let's not forget emergency management and military applications since we have the largest market of multi-national corporations, many of which already have put their toes into the ontology pond. Ralph Hodgson: @Todd - use of ontologies at Netherlands MoJ for CCTS-based XML Schema Message building for interoperability in the Justice Domain, use of ontologies at NASA for Units of Measure (QUDT) and for Telemetry, Commanding for Space Interoperability (TCMX) ToddSchneider: Perhaps, a partition based on lifecycle (in the context of sales pitch) RexBrooks: Making the case to those multi-nationals could open doors to research funding for our ontological needs. SteveRay: We have had some concrete examples identified via email: Lloyds Bank Human Resources; a technical support call center; an ERP data quality application DeborahMacPherson: I believe making the case for ontologies to build bridges from relational databases to web services and data repositories will appeal to a wide audience. anonymous1 morphed into John Sowa Michael Uschold: The following paper suggests a framework for understanding classifying ontology applications. http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.39.6456&rep=rep1&type=pdf GaryBergCross: The value proposition (benefit)often becomes very rapidly a cost-benefit calculation. So lowering the "cost" of good semantics is an important part of making this "sales pitch". Ralph Hodgson: I posted some slides here on customer case studies - http://www.scribd.com/doc/40220051/TQ-TBS-Customer-Case-Studies-aRH-v4 ToddSchneider: How do I mute the phone? RexBrooks: It would be helpful if we had an ontology of value models of special or particular interest for various domains could be quickly referenced. That way we have a better chance of speaking to any given market's interest and values. MikeBennett: Possible case: financial industry - common terms and definitions as industry benefit; also regulatory reform. Michael Uschold: Section three of the following paper considers varoius roles and value propositions for ontologies. "Ontologies: principles, methods and applications" - http://starlab.vub.ac.be/teaching/uschold.pdf MatthewWest: I think it is worth considering the situations in which ontologies can add value. These include: Ralph Hodgson: @Matthew - see slide 22 of http://www.scribd.com/doc/40220051/TQ-TBS-Customer-Case-Studies-aRH-v4 for a 2 by 2 on "Putting Ontologies to Work" SteveRay: @Todd: Mute by pressing *2 MatthewWest: - When definitions need to be shared across (or within) organizations - When data needs to be shared between disparate systems ToddSchneider: Peter, with or without beer? MatthewWest: - when information needs to be provided in a more timely manner and inferencing will provide the automation that will provide that timeliness PeterYim: @without beer ... we might get too incoherent for ontologists otheerwise NicolaGuarino: Sorry, I got disconnected, I am connecting again... MikeBennett: Theme: Ontology as business conceptual model versus Ontology as component of a solution (there is case to be made for each) MatthewWest: @Ralph - yes that covers most of the things I have. ToddSchneider: Unfortunately, this problem space (the sales pitch) seems to have multiple orthogonal dimensions Ralph Hodgson: I did * 3 PeterYim: please review some of the guideline I've posted earlier today (as rules of engagement) - http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontology-summit/2010-12/msg00095.html NicolaGuarino: I am back! Ralph Hodgson: I get a response "this line is now unmuted" ToddSchneider: Ralph, can you speak up? GaryBergCross: In SOCoP (geospatial Apps) there's an agreement that Country Codes offers a simple opportunity to show the value of ontologies. Among the reason under lie this agreement that there is a need to address a real problem of different country code being used in US Agencies as well as internationally due to new ISO Standards and the expiration of the US FIPS standard. Work groups are now seeking was of implementing regional codes and of cross walking between old codes and new. So ontologies and semantics can be an effective part of the solution and can be incorporated into current geospatial services for discovery, query, display and publishing. Michael Uschold: Ideas for Suggested Tracks 1.Design a framework for describing and characterizing ontology applications that everyone can fill out and be basis of a catalog. 2.Analysis of case studies: what worked, what did not and why, lessons learned 3.Considering various roles and value propositions for ontologies a.Ontology driven information systems b.Ontology for search applications c.Ontology for interoperability 4.Based on Industry Sectors catalog of ontology applications a.Life Sciences b.Finance c.Media etc. 5.Measuring the value considering metrics etc. ToddSchneider: Have to go. Thank you. I'll champion aspects of architecture, if needed. Ramdsriram: Need to go. Will be back in 15mins PeterYim: I have two process ideas to suggest: (a) building a collection of sound-bites and quotable quotes (to help make our case), (b) Making the Case, for and against, Ontology in an IQ-squared style debate and measuring success by seeing how many minds each side is able to change (ref. http://intelligencesquaredus.org/index.php/about-us) ... debater nominations solicited SteveRay: What I heard Ralph suggest: 1. Presenting what an ontology is 2. Capability cases 3. Barriers MatthewWest: The benefits come from improving the clarity, consistency, and timeliness of information used in key decisions. If you look for examples of where bad decisions have been made, you can often find that a lack of these was a contributory factor, and the cost of the bad decision is often all too available. anonymous1 morphed into PavithraKenjige Michael Uschold: i did * three, im on skyhpe MikeBennett: @Matthew you mean like the fall-out from the financial crisis? GaryBergCross: I agree with Michael Uschold on the value of designing a framework for describing and characterizing ontology applications but our examples might address benefits for government and education as well as "commercial needs". NicolaGuarino: I am also using skype, * 3 works... Ralph Hodgson: @Michael +1 - to all your suggestions GaryBergCross: So do we have a track on Best Practices for Success? MatthewWest: @Mike - yes, and some problems with oil in the wrong place in the Gulf of Mexico. RexBrooks: Much of these studies and frameworks are examples of what I meant by the need for a value model ontology, an ontology of value models, perhaps by application domain. PeterYim: there are 3 Mike's on the call, please refer to them with their full name (in WikiWord format) GerryRadack: Ontology for data quality. NicolaGuarino: I support Michael's proposal very much. Just a couple of remarks: GaryBergCross: I hope that we have a Panel "track" as well as talks to discuss some of this at the Summit. Ralph Hodgson: @MichaelUshold - great ideas - +1 anonymous morphed into PavithraKenjige1 MikeBennett: New Skype, not responding to the thing PavithraKenjige1 morphed into PavithraKenjige MatthewWest: The Oil and Process Industries can provide supply chain case studies. They are also available for the use/charging for copyright material Michael Uschold: Agree with Nicola - on need to align requirements for ontologies with the kinds of ontologies needed. PeterYim: I want to endorse the earlier posts from ToddSchneider (http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontology-summit/2010-12/msg00032.html) and AliHashemi (http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontology-summit/2010-12/msg00091.html) and want want to draw people attention to them, and to make sure the organizing committee give them due consideration when crafting the approach and tracks MikeBennett: On government, it's worth noting that in the US the regulators are starting to ask questions with the word "Ontology" in them, in terms of compliance to Dood/Frank MikeDenny: I am part of a team implementing net-centric enterprise information exchange across the US Air Force that is semantically informed by formal domain vocabularies built by Communities of Interest. I would be interested in joining with others in this forum who would like to establish some activity at the Ontology Summit that attempts to illuminate the tangible and less tangible benefits of ontology for data modeling and Web service development within the enterprise. GaryBergCross: The Marine Metadata Interoperability Project has some demo success stories to report (http://marinemetadata.org/)on coastal and marine data. DeborahMacPherson: I've just reached out to some people working on the International Framework for Dictionaries, which is a framework for the building industry where different ontologies can co-exist. [http://dev.ifd-library.org/index.php/Ifd:IFD_in_a_Nutshell#IFC_as_an_ontology] most people are in Europe but seeing if they can get engaged in the discussion or possibly come join the workshop. Michael Uschold: The Marine Metadata Interoperability link is not working. SteveRay: Looks like the link has some extra stuff at the end. Michael Uschold: Ah yes, easy to remove. NicolaGuarino: @John: Yes, interoperability requirements depend on who you are interoperating with, but in many cases you don't know your partner in advance... GaryBergCross: For MMI(Marine Metadata Interoperability) try http://marinemetadata.org/node PeterYim: Please suuply submit via the chat-board, candidate "Tracks" - title (no more than 5 words) along with a brief description (no more than 30 words) Michael Uschold: Agree with John, elaborating on Nicola's point. Nicola is right in general, that an ontology for interoperability will typicaly need more depth than one for search. John shows how we need to dig a bit deeper to get the full picture. Michael Uschold: imhere, I w8ill try to do that Michael Uschold: 1.Ontology Application Framework 2.Analysis of Case Studies 3.Roles/Uses of Ontologies 4.Industry sectors for ontology applications 5.Value metrics MikeBennett: Track: Ontology as application v ontology for domain knowledge PeterYim: == Candidate Track Inputs now == RexBrooks: Value-Models: What values are appropriate arguments for domains--I don't really have the time to champion this, but I would work with a champion. SteveRay lowered your hand Ralph Hodgson: @MikeBennett - Ontologies as specification models - see slide 22 of the scribd presentation also other slides at the back Michael Uschold: To MikeBennet - this is covered in the roles/uses of ontologies. One use is a basis for an application, another use is to keep a record of a body of knowledge. MikeBennett: @Michael agreed NicolaGuarino1: 1. Ontologies of (for) socio-technical systems; 2. deep vs. lightweight ontologies Michael Uschold: How do you get a formal reference to a persons as in @MIkeBennet, is it just to type it in? RexBrooks: @Michael Uschold: Value Metrics would be part of Value Models. Ralph Hodgson: Ontology Architecture as a theme MatthewWest: @MikeDenny - If I make the Summit I would be interested in that. Ramdsriram: Regarding the IFD library (see Deborah's comment): Are these ontologies actually being used in the industry? GaryBergCross: Perhaps the overall structure for the workshop is to have a track for some general discussion that is followed by more specific topical tracks that fit within the App framework set up in the general track. This would be followed by a panel discussion. Ralph Hodgson: QA Metrics for Ontologies - as part of Ontology Engineering theme DeborahMacPherson: Propose a Track for using ontologies to link up disparate domains. For example, 15926 from it's history to future - process plants before, buildings and energy now. - another option is getting from relational databases to web services, SOA and more familiar terms. RexBrooks: By Value Models I mean things like Values for good/workable/useful ontologies as one, while the value of a interoperability model to emergency management would be another. DeborahMacPherson: RE: IFD Library - yes and no - not being used by architects and engineers enough, is used by data warehouses and software developers. End users just keep making up their own definitions for what things are and how they are related RexBrooks: Imeant interoperability ontology not interoperability model in last note. GaryBergCross: I'm surprised that no one (0n this call) has volunteered (or volunteered others) to cover Success Stories for Ontologies and Data Integration in the Biomedical domain. See for example: http://www.lhncbc.nlm.nih.gov/lhc/docs/published/2008/pub2008024.pdf which also covers "Challenging Issues" PeterYim: given the earlier partnership MichaelUschold-MichaelGruninger work, I nominate them as co-chairs with one of the track champions (on a track of their choice) PeterYim: @MikeUschold - could you take one on? with Gruninger? ... if so, which one (of the 5 your proposed) would be your favorite? NicolaGuarino1: @Peter: I definitely support your proposal. However, we are just collecting volunteers for tracks (and tracks proposals) now. Co-chairs will be appointed later... NicolaGuarino1 morphed into NicolaGuarino GaryBergCross: For a track can we get someone to discuss Ontology Design Patterns (ODPs) as a Best practice? The recent 2nd Workshop on Ontology Patterns probably had some success examples of their use. PeterYim: @Nicola - yes ... however, I just wanted to make sure MikeUschold doesn't "hate" me for volunteering him here! SteveRay: Mills Davis suggests Dennis Wisnoski as a speaker Ramdsriram: There are a number of good applications of biomedical ontologies reported by by NCBO (http://www.bioontology.org/). I think most of these applications are in research organizations. GaryBergCross: I for one think success in research organizations is good to have at the Summit. They can often be the leading edge for later commercial work. Michael Uschold: I'll have to ponder this. It will be certainly easier for me to lead the effort that is based on my work. Michael Uschold: @Ralph - this is hotly contested. Some say ontologies are not needed for linked data. Indeed, if you look at they BBC example, you don't see much talk about how an ontology was used or if so, how it helped. GaryBergCross: Does FOIS 2010 have anything to suggest on a track? Michael Uschold: There is another trackis might be called a marketing/presentation track that focused on how to get the message out to the public. All other groups would feed in to this one. Ralph Hodgson: @MichaelUschold - is the "this" of your remark referring to how schema-based LOD is? GaryBergCross: I like the idea of at least a talk on the ontology "marketing" idea - towards the end of the workshop.. Michael Uschold: @Ralph - yes, sorry for not being clear. Michael Uschold: When people talk about speakers, when and where will they speak? At upcoming telecons? At the summit? Im unclear. PavithraKenjige: thanks PeterYim: yes ... mainly at virtual panel sessions PavithraKenjige: for inviting Michael Uschold: @Peter - ok, thanks. LeoObrst: I use a slide for educational purposes that plots the expressivity of an ontology (really, semantic models, ranging from taxonomy to thesaurus to conceptual model to logical theory, underscoring that "more expressive semantic models enable more complex applications", with applications ranging from simple search extensions to enhanced search/navigation and cross-referencing of documents, to enterprise modeling and question anwering, to semantic search and interoperability applications. PeterYim: -- session ended: 13:10 pm PST --