Joint RulesReasoningLP (s05) and OntologyBasedStandards (s07) mini-series session - Thu 2014_01_09    (437X)

Program: A Joint session for the Ontology, Rules, and Logic Programming for Reasoning and Applications (RulesReasoningLP) mini-series and the OntologyBasedStandards mini-series    (437Y)

Topic: Rule Standards: CommonLogic, RuleML, and RIF    (437Z)

Session Co-chairs: Professor HaroldBoley (U of New Brunswick), Mr. MikeDean (Raytheon BBN Technologies) & Professor AdrianPaschke (Freie Universität Berlin) ... intro slides    (4380)

Panelists / Briefings:    (4381)

Archives:    (438C)

Conference Call Details:    (438L)

Attendees:    (439I)

Abstract    (439Z)

Rule Standards: CommonLogic, RuleML, and RIF ... intro slides    (43A0)

This is the 5th session of the RulesReasoningLP mini-series - a series of virtual panel sessions, and the associated online discourse, co-championed by some members of the Ontolog community who value the importance of the subject matter and would want to bring together those who are knowledgeable or interested into a dialog. The mini-series program will cover the topics that encapsulates the ontology-driven applications that will generally fall under "Ontology, Rules, and Logic Programming for Reasoning and Applications."    (43A1)

The focus of this session is on standards for rule languages. Panelists include MichaelGruninger (Common Logic Second Edition), AdrianPaschke (The RuleML Perspective on Deliberation-Reaction Standards), and MichaelKifer (The Rule Interchange Format and Its Dialects).    (43A2)

After the panelists briefings, there will be time for Q&A and an open discussion among the panel and all the participants.    (43A3)

See more details at: RulesReasoningLP (homepage for this mini-series)    (43A4)

Briefings:    (4385)

Agenda:    (43A5)

Joint RulesReasoningLP (s05) & OntologyBasedStandards (s07) session    (43A6)

Session Format: this is a virtual session conducted over an augmented conference call    (43A7)

Proceedings    (43AC)

Please refer to the above ... (details coming!)    (43AE)

IM Chat Transcript captured during the session:    (43AF)

 see raw transcript here.    (43AG)
 (for better clarity, the version below is a re-organized and lightly edited chat-transcript.)
 Participants are welcome to make light edits to their own contributions as they see fit.    (43AH)
 -- begin in-session chat-transcript --    (43AI)
	------
	Chat transcript from room: ontolog_20140109
	2014-01-09 GMT-08:00 [PST]
	------    (43H7)
	[9:15] PeterYim: Welcome to the    (43H8)
	 = Joint RulesReasoningLP (s05) and OntologyBasedStandards (s07) mini-series session - 2014_01_09 =    (43H9)
	Program: A Joint session for the Ontology, Rules, and Logic Programming for Reasoning and Applications 
	         (RulesReasoningLP) mini-series and the OntologyBasedStandards mini-series    (43HA)
	Topic: Rule Standards: CommonLogic, RuleML, and RIF    (43HB)
	Session Co-chairs:    (43HC)
	* Professor HaroldBoley (U of New Brunswick),
	* Mr. MikeDean (Raytheon BBN Technologies), and
	* Professor AdrianPaschke (Freie Universitat Berlin)    (43HD)
	Panelists / Briefings:    (43HE)
	* Professor MichaelGruninger (IAOA; U of Toronto) - "Common Logic Second Edition"    (43HF)
	* Professor AdrianPaschke (RuleML; Freie Universität Berlin) - "The RuleML Perspective on Deliberation-Reaction Standards"    (43HG)
	* Professor MichaelKifer (W3C/RIF; Stony Brook University) - "The Rule Interchange Format and Its Dialects"    (43HH)
	Logistics:    (43HI)
	* Refer to details on session page at: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2014_01_09    (43HJ)
	* (if you haven't already done so) please click on "settings" (top center) and morph from "anonymous" to your RealName    (43HK)
	* Mute control (phone keypad): *7 to un-mute ... *6 to mute    (43HL)
	* Attn: Skype users ... see details at: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2014_01_09#nid438V
	** you may connect to (the skypeID) "joinconference" whether or not it indicates that it is online 
	   (i.e. even if it says it is "offline," you should still be able to connect to it.)
	** if you are using skype and the connection to "joinconference" is not holding up, try using (your favorite POTS or 
	   VoIP line, etc.) either your phone, skype-out or google-voice and call the US dial-in number: +1 (206) 402-0100 
	   ... when prompted enter Conference ID: 141184#
	** Can't find Skype Dial pad?
	*** for Windows Skype users: Can't find Skype Dial pad? ... it's under the "Call" dropdown menu as "Show Dial pad"
	*** for Linux Skype users: please note that the dial-pad is only available on v4.1 (or later)
	      if the dialpad button is not shown in the call window you need to press the "d" hotkey to enable it.    (43HM)
	Attendees: AdrianPaschke, AlexShkotin, AliHashemi, AmandaVizedom, AnatolyLevenchuk, 
	  AndreaWesterinen, BenjaminGrosof, BiplabSarker, BobKowalski, BobbinTeegarden, ConradBock, 
	  DennisPierson, ElizabethFlorescu, FrankOlken, GenZou, HaroldBoley, HassanAitKaci, HensonGraves, 
	  JoelBender, JohnMcClure, JonathanBona, KenBaclawski, LeoObrst, MarwanGhabin, MichaelGruninger, 
	  MichaelKifer, MikeBennett, MikeDean, NancyWiegand, PaulFodor, PaulTyson, PeteRivett, PeterYim, 
	  PieterPauwels, Pipauwel, RexBrooks, RoyBell, SteveMandl, TaraAthan, ToddPehle, ToddSchneider, 
	  TomTinsley, VictorAgroskin,    (43HN)
	Err:510    (43HO)
	[9:06] anonymous morphed into Pipauwel    (43HP)
	[9:16] PeterYim: hello, Pipauwel ... Welcome! ... please morph into your RealName (in wikiword 
	format) via the "Settings" button/link ... thank you.    (43HQ)
	[9:19] anonymous morphed into AndreaWesterinen    (43HR)
	[9:23] Pipauwel morphed into PieterPauwels    (43HS)
	[9:23] PieterPauwels: okay, just did that    (43HT)
	[9:23] PieterPauwels: thank you    (43HU)
	[9:26] PeterYim: Thank you, Pieter    (43HV)
	[9:28] anonymous morphed into AmandaVizedom    (43HW)
	[9:31] anonymous morphed into ConradBock    (43HX)
	[9:31] MikeBennett: [ref. Peter;s verbal comment that the "hum" on the line may have been introduced 
	by Mike] I am muted locally buzz isn't me?    (43HY)
	[9:31] MikeBennett: I'll redial    (43HZ)
	[9:32] MikeBennett: Did it stop? Was using joiconference    (43I0)
	[9:32] AmandaVizedom: phew!    (43I1)
	[9:32] AmandaVizedom: It did stop, Mike    (43I2)
	[9:32] MikeBennett: Odd. I could hear it too, which is odd if one is the originator of a noise.    (43I3)
	[9:32] anonymous morphed into TaraAthan    (43I4)
	[9:33] anonymous morphed into PaulTyson    (43I5)
	[9:33] anonymous morphed into AdrianPaschke    (43I6)
	[9:34] anonymous2 morphed into MichaelKifer    (43I7)
	[9:34] AliHashemi morphed into AliHashemi    (43I8)
	[9:34] anonymous1 morphed into BiplabSarker    (43I9)
	[9:34] AmandaVizedom: Lots of background noise today. Perhaps people with stuff going on around them 
	could mute locally, if they don't need to speak now.    (43IA)
	[9:34] MikeBennett: Any quieter? Muted locally of course.    (43IB)
	[9:35] AmandaVizedom: Normal level of background noise now. The star wars effects went away. :-)    (43IC)
	[9:36] MikeBennett: T.    (43ID)
	[9:48] PeterYim: @MikeBennett ... apologies, it was HensonGraves' phone line, and not yours, that 
	was injecting the hum earlier!    (43IE)
	[9:49] MikeBennett: @Peter No worries, I changed as many things as I could anyway.    (43IF)
	[9:34] anonymous morphed into PeteRivett    (43IG)
	[9:36] anonymous morphed into DennisPierson    (43IH)
	[9:37] anonymous morphed into BobbinTeegarden    (43II)
	[9:37] anonymous morphed into PaulFodor    (43IJ)
	[9:37] anonymous morphed into AnatolyLevenchuk    (43IK)
	[9:37] PeterYim: == HaroldBoley started the session ...    (43IL)
	[9:38] anonymous1 morphed into SteveMandl    (43IM)
	[9:41] anonymous morphed into BenjaminGrosof    (43IN)
	[9:41] anonymous1 morphed into ElizabethFlorescu    (43IO)
	[9:47] LeoObrst1 morphed into LeoObrst    (43IP)
	[9:41] PeterYim: == MichaelGruninger presenting ... refer to slides under: 
	http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2014_01_09#nid438F    (43IQ)
	[9:49] AnatolyLevenchuk: [ref. MichaelGruninger's slide#5 enumerating standards that uses 
	CommonLogic] What about OMG SBVR (it is ontology standard with reference to Common Logic too)?    (43IR)
	[9:50] PeterYim: @MichaelGruninger: slide#5 - OntoIOp ("OMG" instead of "ISO") ... will supply an 
	update to this slide    (43IS)
	[9:46] LeoObrst: @MichaelGruninger: do you have an example of something in the Universe of Reference 
	that is not in the Universe of Discourse?    (43IT)
	[9:50] TaraAthan: @Leo- the universe of discourse is simply the subset of the universe of reference 
	that quantifier range over. It is a matter of design. An upper ontology could use a domain of 
	reference containing (only) spatial entities, and have a parthood relation P that describes the 
	mereology. The symbol P does not denote any spatial entity, so it is in the universe of reference, 
	but not in the universe of discourse.    (43IU)
	[9:51] anonymous morphed into TomTinsley    (43IV)
	[9:53] anonymous morphed into JohnMcClure    (43IW)
	[9:53] anonymous morphed into JoelBender    (43IX)
	[9:56] anonymous morphed into RexBrooks    (43IY)
	[10:01] ToddSchneider: @MichaelGruninger, when the CL update is finalized will it be made available 
	without charge?    (43IZ)
	[10:05] MichaelGruninger: @ToddSchneider -- yes, it will be available without charge, but you will 
	need to access it through the ISO website and agree to the copyright terms specified there.    (43J0)
	[10:08] TaraAthan: The free version of the current CL standard can be accessed through this page: 
	http://iso-commonlogic.org/    (43J1)
	[10:04] PeterYim: == AdrianPaschke presenting ...    (43J2)
	[10:26] PeterYim: == MichaelKifer presenting ...    (43J3)
	[10:31] HaroldBoley: Michael K is now on slide 4.    (43J4)
	[10:32] LeoObrst: Thanks, Tara. What if you wanted a family of P part relations, and wanted to 
	quantify over those: then P would go into the universe of discourse? That's quantifying over 
	relations, however. Maybe my example here is somewhat contrived.    (43J5)
	[10:34] MichaelGruninger: @LeoObrst: Yes, that is what is going on in slide 14 (titled Segregated 
	and Unsegregated Dialects)    (43J6)
	[10:35] BenjaminGrosof: It will be interesting to figure out the RuleLog angle of the open CL 
	semantic/syntactic issues. of the semantic and syntactic issues listed for CL by MichaelGruninger. 
	One such issue for Rulelog may be circularity in inclusion (KB import).    (43J7)
	[10:35] LeoObrst: @AdrianPaschke: can you only have negation-as-failure for Reaction rules? Or also 
	a form of logical negation?    (43J8)
	[11:08] AdrianPaschke: @Leo: negation in the definition of complex event definitions (event 
	patterns) is typically an event operator, which means this event should not occur within an interval 
	of events or time intervals. Negation can also occur in the condition part of reaction rules. Here 
	it can be negation as failure as in normal logic programs or strong negation as in extended logic 
	programs. There are also extensions of production rules for complex event processing where the 
	negation is a kind of inflationary negation.    (43J9)
	[10:50] LeoObrst: @MichaelKifer: if one wanted to map between CL and RIF, I guess it would be to the 
	RIF-FLD, right? Has that been considered?    (43JA)
	[10:53] BenjaminGrosof: In regard to RIF dialects development: Also, one of the first dialects 
	drafted under RIF FLD is for Rulelog (earlier called SILK). Currently this is being developed via 
	RuleML, with probable submission to W3C and OASIS.    (43JB)
	[10:54] BenjaminGrosof: SILK project was one of the first implementations of RIF-BLD.    (43JC)
	[10:55] ToddSchneider: @MichaelGruninger, What is the prognosis for commercial support for CL? In 
	particular reasoners?    (43JD)
	[10:57] BobKowalski: Are inductive definition included in Common Logic?    (43JE)
	[10:57] TaraAthan: Actually it is possible to have a segregated dialect and still quantify over 
	*some* relations (like hilog.)    (43JF)
	[10:58] MichaelGruninger: @BobKowalski: No, inductive definitions are not covered by Common Logic.    (43JG)
	[11:01] TaraAthan: yes    (43JH)
	[10:58] HaroldBoley: @Benjamin, is your Question about CL or RIF?    (43JI)
	[11:01] BenjaminGrosof: my question is about CL    (43JJ)
	[11:02] PaulTyson: @MichaelKifer on slide 20 all hyperlinks go to w3c rif-bld spec.    (43JK)
	[11:03] MichaelKifer: @PaulTyson: sorry, the FLD link should be changed: bld->fld ... [PeterYim: 
	slide has now been updated]    (43JL)
	[11:08] AdrianPaschke: have to leave now to catch my train.    (43JM)
	[11:08] AlexShkotin: @Peter, it should be interesting to invite Hets project somebody to talk:-)    (43JN)
	[--:--] PeterYim: @AlexShkotin, we have had presentations of that before (a little while back, 
	though.) Take a look at: - http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2008_01_31 ... 
	slide#43 ( JohnBateman / TillMossakowski / OliverKutz / JoanaHois), and - 
	http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2010_09_10 ... the 
	JohnBateman-TillMossakowski talk    (43JO)
	[11:08] AmandaVizedom: Glad to hear that, in CL, things like provenance that are currently in 
	(non-machine-useful) annotations will likely be represented semantically, machine-readably, and 
	therefore presumably available for reasoning.    (43JP)
	[11:10] AdrianPaschke: (have to leave) if you have questions about RuleML I will respond later via 
	the chat or you can send me an email. bye.    (43JQ)
	[11:10] BenjaminGrosof: @MichaelKifer: how would the example on MichaelGruninger's slide 10 be 
	treated in Rulelog, i.e., in Hilog?    (43JR)
	[11:16] TaraAthan: In hilog, don't you have to explicitly state that the new relation is a hilog 
	relation?    (43JS)
	[11:10] MichaelKifer: @Benjamin: I need to think about MichaelGruninger's slide 10.    (43JT)
	[11:15] AliHashemi: @MichaelGruninger - do you know if the PrIKL project is still under development? 
	http://prikl.sourceforge.net/    (43JU)
	[11:30] MichaelGruninger: @AliHashemi: I am not sure about the current status of PrIKL. We should 
	contact Fabian Neuhaus    (43JV)
	[11:15] LeoObrst: Related to my question about a mapping between CL and RIF-FLD, perhaps the mapping 
	between those should actually occur in OntoIOp?    (43JW)
	[11:23] AmandaVizedom: @BenjaminGrosof, MichaelGruninger -- this is important: the mapping itself 
	happens in a theory, and the original one need not inherit from it.    (43JX)
	[11:32] TaraAthan: RIF-FLD is not a language. You would have to define a particular specialization 
	before using OntoIOp to map it to CL.    (43JY)
	[11:30] AliHashemi: I'm unsure there is a fundamental disagreement. Theories can extend or interpret 
	one another in a variety of ways. Being able to track and exploit conservative extensions leads to a 
	lot of useful outcomes...    (43JZ)
	[11:30] AliHashemi: (I guess I got lost as to where the disagreement is)    (43K0)
	[11:33] AmandaVizedom: I agree Ali. I think the initial disagreement arose from a difference in the 
	kind of uses people were thinking of; there seems to be agreement on the general point that you can 
	usefully have nonconservative extension when you have the right kind of awareness / specification of 
	the (non)-inheritance relations between the original and extension-including theories.    (43K1)
	[11:33] AliHashemi: @BenjaminGrosof and @MichaelKifer, I'm unsure what the position is re 
	conservative extensions    (43K2)
	[11:33] MichaelKifer: @TaraAthan: You are right. One needs to define a CL dialect as a 
	specialization of FLD    (43K3)
	[11:34] TaraAthan: @MichaelKifer - it would be an interesting exercise.    (43K4)
	[11:35] AliHashemi: It seems useful that any system should be able to discriminate what type of 
	extensions or mappings two theories have to one another.    (43K5)
	[11:36] TaraAthan: @Ali- yes. The original CL semantics did not allow a choice. In the revision, 
	there is a choice.    (43K6)
	[11:37] AmandaVizedom: @Ali - yes, and that is essential to defining modules, imports, 
	interoperability, spindle structures, etc. But I think it is also true that it gets insufficient 
	attention (in that people do mapping without tending to it.    (43K7)
	[11:36] MichaelKifer: @AlexShkotin: I guess, we agreed to disagree. Our position is that it we don't 
	think that the mappings should be conservative extensions, but, if necessary, the mappings can be 
	restricted to ensure that they are conservative.    (43K8)
	[11:24] PaulTyson: Is it off-topic to ask who is using these languages (or another rule language) in 
	an industrial (not academic) application? Which language(s)? Why (or why not)? What for?    (43K9)
	[11:31] AlexShkotin: @PaulTyson session 2013_12_19 was very interesting ... may be here 
	http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2013_12_19    (43KA)
	[11:32] PaulTyson: @Alex thanks, I have not caught up on all the preceding sessions.    (43KB)
	[11:33] PeterYim: Great session!    (43KC)
	[11:33] PeterYim: Join us again, same time, next Thursday, when we will be featuring the 
	OntologySummit2014 Launch Event, on 16-Jan-2014 ... mark your calendars and watch out for further 
	announcements and developing details at: 
	http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2014_01_16    (43KD)
	[11:33] LeoObrst: Thanks, all. Very good session!    (43KE)
	[11:33] AmandaVizedom: Thanks all    (43KF)
	[11:37] AlexShkotin: C u:-)    (43KG)
	[11:34] PeterYim: -- session ended: 11:32am PST --    (43KH)
 -- end of in-session chat-transcript --    (43AJ)

Additional Resources:    (43AO)

For the record ...    (43B0)

How To Join (while the session is in progress)    (43B1)